Complex Lighting

[gar]

221203-1040 EDT

Therealcrt:

I want to start by ignoring your dimmer need, and how and when they should work.

Next is a safety question and whether you should ever be able to turn everything off. That subject needs some input on philosophy. So also ignore that to start.

Now that gets us down to the logic that you want.

With the GE RR relay type system you have switches, the RR relay, with a SPST power switch that is physically bistable. This means the mechanical switch has two stable states that hold the last set condition independent of available power. The same function as an ordinary toggle switch. The relay also has two coils, a set and a reset, the relay only requires a short pulse of energy to a coil to change its state. Two or more pulses of energy to the same coil has no effect on the output state beyond the first pulse.

This means that to control the state of the relay that only s momentary closure of an input switch is required to change the relay state. Thus, many SPST-NO momentary switches can be in parallel to control a single relay coil.

The logical connection of various momentary SPST-NO switches then determine how your system works.

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[LarryFine]

Even classic X-10 equipment could do what he's asking for

 

[gar]

221203-1148 EST

I will also point out that the GE RR relay system for control works at 24 V, and for control wiring uses #20 copper wire. Three controlling switches will fit in a small box. Also the UP direction of the switch can be the ON position for all switches, and DOWN as OFF. Thus, even though you can not see the controlled circuit you can make it either ON or OFF. Also there are RR relays with internal contacts that can control an external pilot light at your switch location.

I have somewhere around 40 RRs in my home. These were installed in 1965. And I have played with RRs since 1960. Reliability is good if you use good circuit design. My circuit design will not burn out a relay coil even with a momentary switch held closed. The relay coils are not designed for continuous excitation.

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[Therealcrt]

Three lighting contactors feed the three dimmers.

time clock controls the three lighting contactors.

1 rotary dial timer is wired parallel to the lighting contactor coil.

do this all the time on retail.

I like to use the ABB modular CR series. One coil, up to 12 rails.

Ok but where is the override switch at in this setup?

 

[synchro]

I have a bank of switches at the front of the store that are consisted of dimmer switches to control the lighting in the main store area. Each dimmer will be its own circuit because each switch will control more than 15 lights. In the back of the store near the panel is going to be a timeclock that will turn off and on all the lights at desired time. And also right at the store main entrance is where they want the override switch that will turn off and on ALL the lights at any given time.

So the override switch will override the timeclock. But do you want the override switch to bypass the dimmers so that all lights are either fully ON or they are all OFF when the override is activated?

 

[Therealcrt]

So the override switch will override the timeclock. But do you want the override switch to bypass the dimmers so that all lights are either fully ON or they are all OFF when the override is activated?

Correct

 

[brantmacga]

Ok but where is the override switch at in this setup?

The rotary dial timer is the override. Put it wherever you want it. Wire parallel to contactor switch leg on the same circuit as time clock.


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[Therealcrt]

The rotary dial timer is the override. Put it wherever you want it. Wire parallel to contactor switch leg on the same circuit as time clock.


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Why a rotary dial timer? Couldn’t I just use a SP switch? And are you sure this will work being that there’s more than 1 lighting circuit?
I understand the switch leg from the override switch will control the line side of the contactor but how if there’s 3 circuits

 

[LarryFine]

Why a rotary dial timer? Couldn’t I just use a SP switch? And are you sure this will work being that there’s more than 1 lighting circuit?
I understand the switch leg from the override switch will control the line side of the contactor but how if there’s 3 circuits

A single 3p contactor can be used to bypass three separate switches.

If you use an SP switch to energize the bypass, someone must remember to turn it back off.

 

[Therealcrt]

A single 3p contactor can be used to bypass three separate switches.

If you use an SP switch to energize the bypass, someone must remember to turn it back off.

Ok so basically you’re saying run a home run to my timeclock and then jump off that circuit to my override switch. Then from the load side of the timeclock hit the coil on the contactor. Then from the override switch hit each Input side of each pole on the contactor and from the load side of the contactor out to my dimmers then from my dimmers to my lights. I get that but how will I accomplish that with 3 lighting circuits and only 1 override switch

 

[LarryFine]

Each contact set parallels one circuit's manual switch. If only a dimmer, the bypass will be at full brightness.

I.e., draw out the three individual circuits. Then add a pair of contacts across the right point in each circuit.

Again, the bypass will stay on indefinitely unless remembered, motion-sensored, or timed.

 

[Therealcrt]

Each contact set parallels one circuit's manual switch. If only a dimmer, the bypass will be at full brightness.

I didn’t understand what you meant by that

 

[LarryFine]

If you use a dimmer as the main control for a lighting circuit, bypassing (paralleling) it with contacts will turn the lights on at full brightness.

 

[Therealcrt]

If you use a dimmer as the main control for a lighting circuit, bypassing (paralleling) it with contacts will turn the lights on at full brightness.

I’m not worried about that I may tell them that they aren’t getting dimmers at all so if they were just normal SP switches how would it work still with 3 different circuits

 

[gar]

221204-2111 ST

Therealcrt:

It is clear you have little understanding of electrical circuit theory and logical circuit design.

So the first thing you need to do is write down all the various combinations of things you want to do.

For example you may want to be able to:

1. Turn on all lights from one or more locations.
2. Turn on one circuit, one or more lights, from one or more locations.
3. Turn on some specific number of circuits from one or more location.
4. Same applies to off, but not necessarily the same combinations.
5. One or more time clocks may be used to turn on some combination of circuits, and these may or may not correspond to manually controlled circuits. And how override is to apply.
6. Manually controlled circuits may or may not interfere with what time clock functions do.
7. Motion detectors, and/or fire alarm or CO2 circuits may be included.

So you need to first explicitly decide how the entire control system is to work, and resole any conflicts.

Then you can decide on the components and logical design to use.

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[LarryFine]

Okay, you can picture three switches, each fed by a separate circuit, controlling three separate lights, right?

Now, just connect a contact pair in parallel with, i.e., across each switch, so either one can turn the light on.

Both must be off for the light to be off because they're wired in parallel ("or" gate), not in series ("and" gate).

You'd simply be doing that three times, with one pair of wires between each switch and one pair of contacts.

 

[GeorgeB]

I am not sure you have adequately defined every which way you want to control these lights.

Ah, without a doubt the biggest problem in my career. Salesman sold it, "NO PROBLEM, SIGN HERE" then to me to make "it" work.

 

[Therealcrt]

I guess I just don’t comprehend or understand the explanations very well..

Maybe try dumbing it down

I understand the concept of how to get this to work but not with more than circuit.

My 120v home run needs to go directly to my timeclock. Then I will feed my contactor from the load side of my timeclock, that’s obvious. Then to feed my override switch I use the same 120v circuit I used to feed my timeclock. Now to feed my individual switches I run a wire from the load side of my contactor to each switch. Now i would run a wire from my override switch to the line side terminals of my contactor and jump each 3 terminals so that the override switch will send power to each of my switches simultaneously. But to keep the three switches on their own 120v circuits how do I do it?? Because the way I explained it just now, all three switches are on that one 120v circuit I used to feed the override switch

 

[LarryFine]

Now i would run a wire from my override switch to the line side terminals of my contactor and jump each 3 terminals so that the override switch will send power to each of my switches simultaneously.

Don't feed the contactor line terminals from the timeclock's circuit. Feed each one from one of the three lighting circuits. Each contactor contact set (and each switch) has two terminals, 'line' and 'load'.

From breaker 1, run a wire to switch 1 line terminal and contactor line terminal 1.
From switch 1 load terminal and contactor load terminal 1, run a wire to light group 1.

From breaker 2, run a wire to switch 2 line terminal and contactor line terminal 2.
From switch 2 load terminal and contactor load terminal 2, run a wire to light group 2.

From breaker 3, run a wire to switch 3 line terminal and contactor line terminal 3.
From switch 3 load terminal and contactor load terminal 3, run a wire to light group 3.

The three switch and light groups will normally operate independently, but all three will come on if the contactor is energized, regardless of the three switches' positions, yet remain electrically isolated.

 

[LarryFine]

This reminded me: Back when I was a helper, we did some work in a house with a security system. I noticed an extra black load wire on the front floodlight switch, but the white wire in the cable was unconnected. I traced it to the alarm panel where a relay had been added to energize the floodlights when the system tripped.

Instead of wiring the relay contacts in parallel with the switch, they simply used the alarm panel's feed to also supply the relay, and the floodlights if the system tripped. Being the curious type, I checked, and not only were the alarm panel and the floodlights not on the same circuit, they weren't even on the same phase!

Had the alarm ever tripped while the lights were already on, there would have been a direct line-to-line short. I rewired it properly, connecting the white wire to the line side of the floodlight switch and to the line terminal of the relay contacts, so the alarm panel's circuit would never connect directly to the lighting circuit.