Current on Grounded Conductor

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DBoone said:
He also is stuck on the thought that the electrons are trying to go to the ground and not back to the source. Again he has his own theory that once they get to the earth they are satisfied.
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Gotta love it. The idea of all these satisfied snug little electrons at rest in the Earth. . . . it's positively mystical. :angel:

Has your guy been introduced to the "smoke theory" of electricity? Instead of telling him there is only one correct way, maybe offering him yet more ways to misunderstand will get things moving. . .
Positive ground depends upon proper circuit functioning, the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing.
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There's more to this theory, of which my quote is from. You can read the rest of it by clicking here .
 
DBoone said:
He seems to have his own theory that electrons get excited and alternate directions just on the ungrounded conductor.
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If I were an electron and found myself under pressure with no place to go, I suppose I would get excited and run around in circles too.

Does he have any explanation of how DC circuits work? I guess they require two conductors since the electrons flow in one and the positrons flow in the other? :)
 
K8MHZ said:
How about simply accessing a neutral conductor and clamping it with an amp clamp?

Seeing a meter read current would be far more convincing than math or sketches.
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Boone thought about that, too.
DBoone said:
Even if I put my clamp meter on the "neutral" and showed him that it read current I still believe he would have some explanation.
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DBoone said:
Even if I put my clamp meter on the "neutral" and showed him that it read current I still believe he would have some explanation.
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Given that I would simply forget about it. Some folks are just not worth the effort.

You know you are right, we know you are right, let him stay ignorant.
 
iwire said:
Given that I would simply forget about it. Some folks are just not worth the effort.

You know you are right, we know you are right, let him stay ignorant.
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:D

Boone, tell him he can have his misunderstanding and you and all the rest of us mis-informed electricians will continue to make money and a livelyhood thanks to Franklin, Maxwell, Edison and Tesla.
 
hardworkingstiff said:
I understand that. The comment indicates he works on live systems which is what I was wowing about. Now that I'm old, I just don't do that anymore.
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I thought you were "wowing" about working on "live circuits while standing in water". The water part being key to my comment.
There are so many that still work on live circuits, I didn't think that alone would be a "wow".
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I thought you were "wowing" about working on "live circuits while standing in water". The water part being key to my comment.
There are so many that still work on live circuits, I didn't think that alone would be a "wow".
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Yea, I guess it did come off that way, sorry.

Kind of weird though, you would unground a service in order to work on a live circuit in water? I can see it on a ship, but we are talking about land based stuff, right? Then the PoCo has it referenced to ground, so even if you "ungrounded" it at the service point, I bet there would be enough of a path for current back to the PoCo grounding that you could get hurt standing in water.
 
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hardworkingstiff said:
Yea, I guess it did come off that way, sorry.

Kind of weird though, you would unground a service in order to work on a live circuit in water? I can see it on a ship, but we are talking about land based stuff, right? Then the PoCo has it referenced to ground, so even if you "ungrounded" it at the service point, I bet there would be enough of a path for current back to the PoCo grounding that you could get hurt standing in water.
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Yes, you can't do it for a grounded system supplied by the utility, but you could set up an ungrounded SDS.
 
DBoone said:
He seems to have his own theory that electrons get excited and alternate directions just on the ungrounded conductor. When I try to explain otherwise he usually says "you're letting some nuts on the Internet make you think there is current on this wire (grounded conductor) and there isn't. Etc etc etc. He also is stuck on the thought that the electrons are trying to go to the ground and not back to the source.
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DBoone said:
I forgot to add one thing, whenever we debate it he always goes for the "it's called electrical THEORY, nobody really knows how electricity works"...frustrating.
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don_resqcapt19 said:
If it doesn't carry current, ask him why he installs it? If it doesn't carry current the circuit should work fine without it.
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You would think that some of the suggested things here would make him wonder a little. If it shows current on a meter, if the load doesn't work without it, then it must be important in some way or it would not be there in the first place.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
While not being safe, it is safer to work on ungrounded electrical system while standing in water than to work on grounded electrical systems under the same conditions.
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But removing the 'third prong' does not change a grounded system to an ungrounded one. A 2 wire 120/240 res. system is a grounded system, as the neutral is grounded somewhere.
 
iwire said:
Given that I would simply forget about it. Some folks are just not worth the effort.

You know you are right, we know you are right, let him stay ignorant.
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Yep. Remember, the root of 'ignorant' is 'ignore'.

If he won't believe a meter, the only other way to convince him would be to let him get 'neutral bit'. But that would be intentionally shocking a person, which is a form of battery.

Sorry, I was born to pun.....:D
 
K8MHZ said:
But removing the 'third prong' does not change a grounded system to an ungrounded one. A 2 wire 120/240 res. system is a grounded system, as the neutral is grounded somewhere.
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When the term "grounded" is applied to a system, that term has nothing to do with the presence or absence of an EGC. If a system is "grounded" one of its conductors has been intentionally connected to earth. If a system is "ungrounded" none of its conductors have been intentionally connected to earth. ​
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
When the term "grounded" is applied to a system, that term has nothing to do with the presence or absence of an EGC. If a system is "grounded" one of its conductors has been intentionally connected to earth. If a system is "ungrounded" none of its conductors have been intentionally connected to earth. ​
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That was the point I was trying to make. When I read this:

A guy just yesterday who claims to be some kind of navy electrician told me he always ungrounds his power because it is safer to work on ungrounded power when standing in water.
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I took 'ungrounds his power' as removing the ECG, not disconnecting his neutral from the earth which would require snipping the POCO's GEC at the transformer along with disconnecting the neutral from his own grounding scheme and possibly some of his neighbor's.
 
DBoone said:
Charlie B, I'm positive he is referring to the grounded conductor. He seems to have his own theory that electrons get excited and alternate directions just on the ungrounded conductor. When I try to explain otherwise he usually says "you're letting some nuts on the Internet make you think there is current on this wire (grounded conductor) and there isn't. Etc etc etc. He also is stuck on the thought that the electrons are trying to go to the ground and not back to the source. Again he has his own theory that once they get to the earth they are satisfied. To the poster that mentioned the GFCI, I've had that same thought myself and the next time I get into a debate with him I am going to bring it up. Thank you all for great responses. I hope to convince him one day and in the mean time I will continue to soak up as much knowledge from you all as I can. Thanks.
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Does this guy have any electrical background at all? Five bucks says he doesn't. It always amazes me when people can claim to understand something while having no grasp whatsoever of the fundamentals involved. He doesn't comprehend the difference between current and voltage, and we electricians and engineers are just some nuts on the internet, eh? Right.

It sounds to me like he is one of those guys who would rather be "right" than correct. At some point you'll just have to let him believe what he wants to believe and get on with your life.
 
ggunn said:
Does this guy have any electrical background at all? Five bucks says he doesn't. It always amazes me when people can claim to understand something while having no grasp whatsoever of the fundamentals involved. He doesn't comprehend the difference between current and voltage, and we electricians and engineers are just some nuts on the internet, eh? Right.

It sounds to me like he is one of those guys who would rather be "right" than correct. At some point you'll just have to let him believe what he wants to believe and get on with your life.
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There are many out there that do installations everyday yet really don't have a good understanding of electrical theory. They usually get by just fine with installs, especially types of installs they are familiar with but may struggle with troubleshooting sometimes.

There is a lot of electrical equipment that is assembled in factories by people that have little or no idea of all details of how it works, they were just taught how to assemble it, or at least the portion of it that they do assemble.
 
iwire said:
Given that I would simply forget about it. Some folks are just not worth the effort.

You know you are right, we know you are right, let him stay ignorant.
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I went through three pages before I found your post. I was beginning to wonder if I was expecting too much.

To the original poster. I rarely give up on trying to argue a point with someone, but this is absolutely one of those times. The concept of voltage potential is more pertinent here than current flow per se, but it is obvious to me that trying to even talk about electricity to the person you are referencing is futile. If you are like me, and it is hard to walk away from something you know you are right on, I suggest this: Make him read 2011 NEC 310.15 (B) (5) Which starts, "A neutral conductor that carries only the unbalanced current..."

Then tell him to get his butt to school to learn electrical theory before he gets himself or someone else killed. I would refuse to discuss it any further, and I would make sure that I was not somehow responsible for his safety, if my warnings weren't heeded. Just the though of someone that ignorant is getting my blood boiling this morning!
 
kwired said:
There are many out there that do installations everyday yet really don't have a good understanding of electrical theory. They usually get by just fine with installs, especially types of installs they are familiar with but may struggle with troubleshooting sometimes.

There is a lot of electrical equipment that is assembled in factories by people that have little or no idea of all details of how it works, they were just taught how to assemble it, or at least the portion of it that they do assemble.
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Granted, every word of it, but as long as they can get by doing what they need to do, I have no beef with it. However, when someone takes a position so blatantly wrong on something that is verifiable and wants to argue about it, and you can't even discuss it with them rationally because when you show them the proof they don't know enough about the fundamentals involved that they cannot comprehend what they are looking at... Well, at some point you just have to walk away.
 
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