Dual Function AFCI GFCI breakers that are UL Rated Between Panels?????

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magictolight.com said:
This is true, but we run into events like these no matter what the technology is. Electrician's "red headed step child" just happens to be the AFCI. Go figure.

Like I said, we don't throw it all out because of a one in a million problem. We better embrace it....the code writer certainly are!
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Why embrace something that is supposed to solve a problem that does not even exist? An arc fault is nothing but a re-branded short circuit.
 
romex jockey said:
Wouldn't Dual Function main breakers be the ultimate 'fits all' solution Al.....?

~RJ~
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I thought about that, but when it trips, your house is completely w/o power.

AFCI mains... I'm glad VA only requires AFCI for bedrooms right now.

If you want safety in a new-con home, sprinklers >>> AFCI. Truth is, no one gives a **** about safety, they want square footage.
 
JFletcher said:
I thought about that, but when it trips, your house is completely w/o power.

AFCI mains... I'm glad VA only requires AFCI for bedrooms right now.

If you want safety in a new-con home, sprinklers >>> AFCI. Truth is, no one gives a **** about safety, they want square footage.
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If we did sub main GFP I might consider it, but for an AFCI its just suicide.

I also find this sad but also funny:
 
mbrooke said:
Why embrace something that is supposed to solve a problem that does not even exist? An arc fault is nothing but a re-branded short circuit.
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Actually the definition is: "An arc fault is a high power discharge of electricity between two or more conductors. This discharge translates into heat, which can break down the wire's insulation and possibly trigger an electrical fire. These arc faults can range in power from a few amps up to thousands of amps high and are highly variable in terms of strength and duration. Common causes of arc faults include faulty connections due to corrosion and faulty initial installation."

Wow, after reading this I am even more convinced we are doing right by our clients. Like I said, don't tell your client about the technology, and that will be an awkward meeting if implementation of AFCI's could have meant there home didn't burn down. If you tell them about it and let them decide, having fairly given them the pros and cons, then it's on them.
 
magictolight.com said:
Actually the definition is: "An arc fault is a high power discharge of electricity between two or more conductors. This discharge translates into heat, which can break down the wire's insulation and possibly trigger an electrical fire. These arc faults can range in power from a few amps up to thousands of amps high and are highly variable in terms of strength and duration. Common causes of arc faults include faulty connections due to corrosion and faulty initial installation."
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Of course, that is exactly the definition. I do not dispute that. If I touch hot to neutral, there will be a luminous discharge with volitization between both conductors (electrodes). Your just assuming that "short circuit" has never been relabeled as "short circuit arcing" or latter "arc fault" and I am just saying that because I don't know the definition.

Please watch this first as its key to the history of AFCIs:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emxfsOUTkUg

Also this, notice the terminology:

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf


So with this said, can you please tell me why I was wrong in using the word short circuit indiscriminately with arcing?



Wow, after reading this I am even more convinced we are doing right by our clients. Like I said, don't tell your client about the technology, and that will be an awkward meeting if implementation of AFCI's could have meant there home didn't burn down. If you tell them about it and let them decide, having fairly given them the pros and cons, then it's on them.
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Its interesting you have a dont tread on me avatar yet allow yourself to be treaded on my blindly taking the word of the NFPA. Yes you can educate the customer, but where is the proof 30,000 home fires per year come from arc faults?
 
magictolight.com said:
Wow, after reading this I am even more convinced we are doing right by our clients. Like I said, don't tell your client about the technology, and that will be an awkward meeting if implementation of AFCI's could have meant there home didn't burn down. If you tell them about it and let them decide, having fairly given them the pros and cons, then it's on them.
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Do you have AFCIs in your house? What about the houses of your closest relatives?
 
jumper said:
I know I don't and have no plan of installing any soon.
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4 years ago I moved into a new home with AFCIs. First thing I did was megger the circuits and they passed. Thats all I needed to know. I now sleep like a baby with standard thermal mag breakers :):thumbsup:
 
Full disclosure, I do. I put them in because I had to when I remodelled my house three years into the most recent turn of the century. And I don't have any trouble with them. They are the old branch/feeder type though.

The only AFCI breakers I have ever run into trouble with are the combo AFCI, (not to be confused with dual function AFCI) which will nuisance trip. I guarantee it. And I will testify, under oath, in any court, anywhere, without hesitation, that they do. I have seen it.
 
iwire said:
It is not a one in a million problem.

Type AFCI tripping into Google and it self populates vacumes and treadmills.

I am confused, you specifically asked for others advice on this and you have written off every response that did not fit what your plan is.
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The original post was in regard to a UL listing on an interchangeable AFCI GFCI breaker. The goal is to limit inventory on a service truck. Any time we have a product that can be utilized in many applications, we can reduce the cost of operation of the service truck, the cost of loss in material, we can increase space for other items that can make the truck more profitable. The list goes on and on as you know. The second part of my question probably should have been more specific, being the use of GFCI in areas that are not required to be protected. The NEC continues to expand the AFCI rule, so if we can be forward thinking it benefits us all.
 
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magictolight.com said:
I don't suppose you tried just an AFCI breaker first, to see if it would hold?
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No, because I was already highly suspect that it was the electronics in the dishwasher causing the AFCI to trip. Of course, it could have been actual current leakage causing an issue, but that proved not to be the case. Since GFCI protection is required for dishwashers anyway, I felt completely comfortable eliminating the AFCI and leaving it only GFCI protected. A GFCI at the branch circuit origin provides superior circuit protection: it mitigates shock duration, overloads, short circuits and even glowing faults to a degree, as long as the faulty connection degrades enough to cause a N-G contact.


I certainly understand your logic, but unless you try that first, the blame may not be fully warranted on the AFCI functionality of the breaker.
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As mentioned, once I installed the GFCI breaker, the nuisance tripping stopped. I can say with absolute certainly that it was the AFCI component that was nuisance tripping, not the GFCI.
 
peter d said:
No, because I was already highly suspect that it was the electronics in the dishwasher causing the AFCI to trip. Of course, it could have been actual current leakage causing an issue, but that proved not to be the case. Since GFCI protection is required for dishwashers anyway, I felt completely comfortable eliminating the AFCI and leaving it only GFCI protected. A GFCI at the branch circuit origin provides superior circuit protection: it mitigates shock duration, overloads, short circuits and even glowing faults to a degree, as long as the faulty connection degrades enough to cause a N-G contact.




As mentioned, once I installed the GFCI breaker, the nuisance tripping stopped. I can say with absolute certainly that it was the AFCI component that was nuisance tripping, not the GFCI.
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100% spot on. GFP was the heart of AFCIs and by itself provides protection against over a dozen conditions including so called arcing.
 
magictolight.com said:
The original post was in regard to a UL listing on an interchangeable AFCI GFCI breaker. The goal is to limit inventory on a service truck. Any time we have a product that can be utilized in many applications, we can reduce the cost of operation of the service truck, the cost of loss in material, we can increase space for other items that can make the truck more profitable. The list goes on and on as you know. The second part of my question probably should have been more specific, being the use of GFCI in areas that are not required to be protected. The NEC continues to expand the AFCI rule, so if we can be forward thinking it benefits us all.
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I answered that back in one of first few posts of the thread - no one I am aware of yet (and there are only four manufacturers of AFCI breakers, some of them have more then one line though) has one that is UL classified to fit into some other manufacturer's panel. So if you want to stock something to cover all possibilities you need to stock GE, Siemens, Eaton BR Eaton CH, Square D QO and Square D Homeline versions, if you run into FPE, Zinsco, Pushmatic, and a few others you are out of luck and will not find a AFCI period that will fit the panel.
 
mbrooke said:
100% spot on. GFP was the heart of AFCIs and by itself provides protection against over a dozen conditions including so called arcing.
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True, but GFCI is still better than GFPE, the 5 mA threshold of a GFCI is much better than an AFCI with 30 mA GFPE, if it even has it at all.
 
magictolight.com said:
The original post was in regard to a UL listing on an interchangeable AFCI GFCI breaker. The goal is to limit inventory on a service truck. Any time we have a product that can be utilized in many applications, we can reduce the cost of operation of the service truck, the cost of loss in material, we can increase space for other items that can make the truck more profitable.
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I've found the opposite to be true, AFCI's cost the contractor money is call backs due to phantom/nuisance tripping, as well as costing customers a service call for responding to tripped AFCI calls if it's past the warranty period or simply doing daily service work. Inventory of all the AFCI breakers is an absolute nightmare with all the different brands and configurations. We simply buy it as the need arises.
 
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