Dual Function AFCI GFCI breakers that are UL Rated Between Panels?????

[ramsy]

Please watch this first as its key to the history of AFCIs:

Also this, notice the terminology:

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf

Care to reveal "Brand A", and if any others are that good today?

 

[mbrooke]

Care to reveal "Brand A", and if any others are that good today?

Yup, Square D QO. Also Square D homeline today.

 

[mbrooke]

True, but GFCI is still better than GFPE, the 5 mA threshold of a GFCI is much better than an AFCI with 30 mA GFPE, if it even has it at all.

I agree, but in long runs 5ma can nuisance trip them, ditto for anything that "leaks" current to ground. When your talking about milliamps, be it 5, 30 or 50 the threshold is so low its still highly effective.

 

[mbrooke]

The original post was in regard to a UL listing on an interchangeable AFCI GFCI breaker. The goal is to limit inventory on a service truck. Any time we have a product that can be utilized in many applications, we can reduce the cost of operation of the service truck, the cost of loss in material, we can increase space for other items that can make the truck more profitable. The list goes on and on as you know. The second part of my question probably should have been more specific, being the use of GFCI in areas that are not required to be protected. The NEC continues to expand the AFCI rule, so if we can be forward thinking it benefits us all.

I think you just can not answer post #45 or 40 directly since it contradicts what you have come to believe.


Areas which do not require AFCI protection yet require GFCI are bathrooms, garages, exterior receptacles, pool equipment and unfinished basements.

 

[kwired]

The original post was in regard to a UL listing on an interchangeable AFCI GFCI breaker. The goal is to limit inventory on a service truck. Any time we have a product that can be utilized in many applications, we can reduce the cost of operation of the service truck, the cost of loss in material, we can increase space for other items that can make the truck more profitable. The list goes on and on as you know. The second part of my question probably should have been more specific, being the use of GFCI in areas that are not required to be protected. The NEC continues to expand the AFCI rule, so if we can be forward thinking it benefits us all.

I've found the opposite to be true, AFCI's cost the contractor money is call backs due to phantom/nuisance tripping, as well as costing customers a service call for responding to tripped AFCI calls if it's past the warranty period or simply doing daily service work. Inventory of all the AFCI breakers is an absolute nightmare with all the different brands and configurations. We simply buy it as the need arises.

I think you just can not answer post #45 or 40 directly since it contradicts what you have come to believe.


Areas which do not require AFCI protection yet require GFCI are bathrooms, garages, exterior receptacles, pool equipment and unfinished basements.

AFCI issues aside I think he is asking if there is one AFCI/GFCI device available that is listed to work in multiple panels so that he can just stock one part in the truck instead of multiple parts. He also threw in the dual function option figuring both protection methods provide additional protection where a GFCI only or an AFCI only is all that code requires, again limiting what needs to be in stock in the truck.

My answer is no, if he wants to limit stock, yet always have a device on truck that will work he needs to stock at least six baseline products, and if you consider the fact that there are both 15 and 20 amp circuits that typically require AFCI protection you need at least twelve different items in stock.

 

[peter d]

AFCI issues aside I think he is asking if there is one AFCI/GFCI device available that is listed to work in multiple panels so that he can just stock one part in the truck instead of multiple parts. He also threw in the dual function option figuring both protection methods provide additional protection where a GFCI only or an AFCI only is all that code requires, again limiting what needs to be in stock in the truck.

My answer is no, if he wants to limit stock, yet always have a device on truck that will work he needs to stock at least six baseline products, and if you consider the fact that there are both 15 and 20 amp circuits that typically require AFCI protection you need at least twelve different items in stock.

My answer is "no" as well. The only option is to stock ones from every brand and panel configuration as you pointed out, including the proprietary ones (Square D and CH-CH.) That's why we just order for the job. We don't do much service work and when we do, AFCI's are generally not part of the equation.

 

[iwire]

AFCI issues aside I think he is asking if there is one AFCI/GFCI device available that is listed to work in multiple panels so that he can just stock one part in the truck instead of multiple parts. He also threw in the dual function option figuring both protection methods provide additional protection where a GFCI only or an AFCI only is all that code requires, again limiting what needs to be in stock in the truck.

My answer is no, if he wants to limit stock, yet always have a device on truck that will work he needs to stock at least six baseline products, and if you consider the fact that there are both 15 and 20 amp circuits that typically require AFCI protection you need at least twelve different items in stock.

There are two different questions in the opening post.

I am nailing down my AFCI and GFCI inventory on our trucks and have opted to cut inventory on the trucks by keeping dual function breakers available for my techs. Has anyone found an interchangeable DF breaker available that is UL rated for multiple panel boards? and aside from the extra cost for the breaker does anyone see any substantial draw back in using DF breakers for all AFCI and GFCI applications?

I addressed the first question immediately after approving the thread. They do not exist at this time and I doubt they will.


The second question asks if there are drawbacks with installing DF breakers.

 

[kwired]

There are two different questions in the opening post.



I addressed the first question immediately after approving the thread. They do not exist at this time and I doubt they will.


The second question asks if there are drawbacks with installing DF breakers.

I guess the AFCI opposition type comments qualify in regards to potential drawbacks.

OP may not have expected some of those answers or to have to defend his opinion on AFCI in general, but he did ask the question in a place where almost every one of those replies is nothing new.

 

[romex jockey]

Eaton/Cut hammer has universal breakers , much like the old universal T&B's that fit 8 makes

I'm unsure if they've a DP model as yet

If and when they do, i'll be stocking them

The DP's cost maybe $7-10 more than a afci , we've been using them for any GF required branch circuit as they are cost effective

The pros /cons are obvious to most readers here.

~RJ~

 

[ramsy]

Eaton/Cut hammer has universal breakers , much like the old universal T&B's that fit 8 makes

I'm unsure if they've a DP model as yet
~RJ~

Eaton "Type CL" breakers are classified for multiple brands, but theres no stock at brick & mortar stores in my region.

Perhaps they dont move off shelves, or store buyers have no clue, but poor sales wont justify a Dual Purpose "Type CL", much less if Eaton's Dual Purpose "Type BR" also lacks volume sales.

Perhaps demand will prefer DP receptacles, just like GFCI receptacles. Especially where Class A (4-6 mA) GFCI's are subject to nuisance issues with longer runs originating at the fuse box.

 

[romex jockey]

True Roger

It's the big DIY box stores that aren't pushing them, despite the '17 cycle rumoured to have all 120V circuitry afci'd. One is witness to maybe one shelf/rack of 'special breakers' surrounded by panel~combo deals of normal ocpd's.

What this evidences is, we are minorities next to the diy market , the demographic legislation of compliance following suit , with the unfortunate onus of statistics being our trades' cross to bear.

I.E., we're being played by manufacturers who cater to both markets.

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

Actually the definition is: "An arc fault is a high power discharge of electricity between two or more conductors. This discharge translates into heat, which can break down the wire's insulation and possibly trigger an electrical fire. These arc faults can range in power from a few amps up to thousands of amps high and are highly variable in terms of strength and duration. Common causes of arc faults include faulty connections due to corrosion and faulty initial installation."

.

Maybe in the 480V equipment , not in resi voltages.

You may advocate and promote electrical products all you like , but you can not change the laws of electrical physics to do so sir.

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

True Roger

It's the big DIY box stores that aren't pushing them, despite the '17 cycle rumoured to have all 120V circuitry afci'd. One is witness to maybe one shelf/rack of 'special breakers' surrounded by panel~combo deals of normal ocpd's.

What this evidences is, we are minorities next to the diy market , the demographic legislation of compliance following suit , with the unfortunate onus of statistics being our trades' cross to bear.

I.E., we're being played by manufacturers who cater to both markets.

~RJ~

Every time I pick up supplies I see this:

 

[mbrooke]

I cant upload pics I keep getting this

Sum of all attachments owned by mbrooke: 18.64 MB

Current Attachment Total: 18.64 MB
Maximum Attachment Storage: 19.07 MB

 

[mbrooke]

Maybe in the 480V equipment , not in resi voltages.

You may advocate and promote electrical products all you like , but you can not change the laws of electrical physics to do so sir.

~RJ~

He bailed when I showed him documentation supporting my statement. He was willing to educate me until I presented knowledge on my part. People are willing to repeat what a trusted entity claims with passion, but what confronted with the facts, especially those which said entity uses as a foundation, a type of cognitive dissonance emerges where people run from the facts because they contradict the original claim. In short the original claim and belief that goes along with it remains standing despite being contradicting.

 

[jumper]

I cant upload pics I keep getting this

Delete old attachments.

 

[mbrooke]

I cleared my attachment history but still get

• afci.jpg - Upload of file failed.

 

[jumper]

I cleared my attachment history but still get

• afci.jpg - Upload of file failed.

Pic too large? IDK

 

[mbrooke]

Thanks, it works now!

 

[kwired]

Thanks, it works now!

Don't you love big box stores? The 15 amp breaker in your picture has been opened before, probably installed, and who knows why it got returned. At least that one is fairly easy to catch though. I have been burned on 3 pack GFCI receptacles and a few other multipack items before and try to remember to open the boxes and make sure they at least have the correct product inside the box. The mentioned GFCI's were supposed to be P & S devices, found out while on job and ready to install that someone placed some of the cheap no-name devices in the box and returned them