Dual Function AFCI GFCI breakers that are UL Rated Between Panels?????

[al hildenbrand]

Little alterations and repairs on branch circuits that are extended, in a home with limited income and a fuse panel or something like a Pushmatic, etc., to my way of thinking, will take less time & material with the DFCI receptacle than the breaker
Tapatalk

 

[kwired]

AFCI is number one reason I have little interest in doing residential work anymore, not that I won't do residential work but I don't go looking for it like I used to. I like the concept of what AFCI is supposed to do, but I do not feel it meets it's own goals though, someday maybe it will, and I don't like the concept of making consumers be the test lab approach that has happened with this technology.

 

[Pizza]

It is true AFCI protection can have some issues, but we are excited to implement this into our client's homes, especially homes where the wiring is older. We offer it as an opportunity to bring an extra level of protection to your home. Home owners want to be as safe as they can, and this is technology I have learned to really appreciate. We are in the business of keeping our clients as safe as possible. When we implement it into an existing home we always let the client know that if there is a problem on the circuit, this breaker will see it and there will be some trouble shooting fees involved if so, or we can put a standard breaker back in. I don't need to tell you our clients gladly pay the trouble shooting fee to figure it out. Good for them, and good for us. Win-Win!

So you're going to sell them on a device that you appreciate so much because it provides added safety, but if it becomes more of a hassle than what's it's worth you will voluntarily remove it?


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[al hildenbrand]

So you're going to sell them on a device that you appreciate so much because it provides added safety, but if it becomes more of a hassle than what's it's worth you will voluntarily remove it?

For service upgrades where no new branch circuits are added and the panel location isn't changed, AFCI is not required.

Now, the question might be, if I elect to install AFCI in such an upgrade, can I later elect to replace them with standard breakers? Today's Code, in my opinion, is silent about this, so, yes.

 

[magictolight.com]

So you're going to sell them on a device that you appreciate so much because it provides added safety, but if it becomes more of a hassle than what's it's worth you will voluntarily remove it?


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No, we repair the circuit if the client decides to have us repair it. We always keep our client at the fore front of the decision making. We let our client know how much it will cost to repair. At that point it is their decision, not ours. We clearly log the decision that is made in a report, and have them sign off if they do not want it implemented on that circuit (An existing circuit not required to be AFCI protected) As long as we keep our client informed, we have done our due diligence.

 

[magictolight.com]

Just recently I was dispatched to a call back for a tripping QO AFCI/GFCI breaker for a dedicated dishwasher circuit. The dishwasher was brand new and very high end (Miele.) It had tripped a number of times for no apparent reason and the customer was getting frustrated, and we were looking bad. I removed the dual function breaker and installed a regular GFCI breaker in its place. It has not tripped since and I sleep well at night. :thumbsup: This proves to me that the AFCI was the bogus part of that equation, not the GFCI tripping due to leakage current.

I don't suppose you tried just an AFCI breaker first, to see if it would hold? I certainly understand your logic, but unless you try that first, the blame may not be fully warranted on the AFCI functionality of the breaker.

 

[iwire]

No, we repair the circuit if the client decides to have us repair it.

And if it is the clients equipment?

 

[kwired]

And if it is the clients equipment?

Exactly, problems with the circuit very likely can be detected by something other then an AFCI breaker.

Problems in an appliance I guess can as well, but you usually get into a little different ballgame if you intend to solve the problem that is within the appliance then if it is a problem in premises wiring.

 

[magictolight.com]

And if it is the clients equipment?

Then we repair the circuit it if the client wants us to repair it, or recommend the appliance be repaired or replaced. And in some cases if they don't want to repair the circuit, we are better off walking away then we are to get our fingers into the circuit. I say "Good luck" to Cheap Charlie who will be happy to come and remove that breaker. We aren't Cheap Charlie.

We should remember the NEC is a minimum standard. What a great "Unique Selling Position" (USP) to be the company that exceeds the NEC in a relentless pursuit of safety for its clients! We need to get out of the mindset of the technician, and get in the mindset of the safety consultant. It's your call, but in our business, our clients know our position, and it is working very well for us. I have been caught in the middle of the AFCI frustration too, and have pulled out the last remaining hair on my head sorting it out. But finally decided to change with the times and roll with it, and I come to you to say, it was well worth it. You know what they say though, "You can lead a horse to water..."

 

[kwired]

Then we repair the circuit it if the client wants us to repair it, or recommend the appliance be repaired or replaced. And in some cases if they don't want to repair the circuit, we are better off walking away then we are to get our fingers into the circuit. I say "Good luck" to Cheap Charlie who will be happy to come and remove that breaker. We aren't Cheap Charlie.

We should remember the NEC is a minimum standard. What a great "Unique Selling Position" (USP) to be the company that exceeds the NEC in a relentless pursuit of safety for its clients! We need to get out of the mindset of the technician, and get in the mindset of the safety consultant. It's your call, but in our business, our clients know our position, and it is working very well for us. I have been caught in the middle of the AFCI frustration too, and have pulled out the last remaining hair on my head sorting it out. But finally decided to change with the times and roll with it, and I come to you to say, it was well worth it. You know what they say though, "You can lead a horse to water..."

You ever had an appliance still under warranty that was determined to contain the cause of AFCI or GFCI tripping, and the manufacturer or their authorized warranty rep tells you nothing is wrong with it even if you know there has to be (or even know what is wrong)? Now you have a client that is upset with both of you because they spent money on the product, money on your services and they still have something that doesn't work for them.

 

[magictolight.com]

You ever had an appliance still under warranty that was determined to contain the cause of AFCI or GFCI tripping, and the manufacturer or their authorized warranty rep tells you nothing is wrong with it even if you know there has to be (or even know what is wrong)? Now you have a client that is upset with both of you because they spent money on the product, money on your services and they still have something that doesn't work for them.

I would always say to my guys, "think outside the box". One idea that immediately comes to mind is protecting that circuit with a different brand AFCI, perhaps with a line load install of an AFCI receptacle, just to see if maybe it is a breaker manufacturer issue. I know it can be frustrating, but there almost always is another way or another solution-that doesn't break the bank.

 

[kwired]

I would always say to my guys, "think outside the box". One idea that immediately comes to mind is protecting that circuit with a different brand AFCI, perhaps with a line load install of an AFCI receptacle, just to see if maybe it is a breaker manufacturer issue. I know it can be frustrating, but there almost always is another way or another solution-that doesn't break the bank.

Why should the brand of AFCI need to matter? They all are supposed to meet same listing standards for one thing, so they should all be able to be used in same applications. Get away from AFCI and into other items that have a common standard and you might find some have good and bad qualities, but they all meet same minimum standards and are acceptable for use based on those standards.

So now I have a Siemens panel in my house, but the Siemens AFCI don't get along with my new vacuum. Now I either have to get rid of my new vacuum (that has nothing wrong with it) or hire an electrician to put in a Square D subpanel and Square D AFCI because their AFCI doesn't have issues with my vacuum? That is BS, the AFCI manufacturers need to get more on same page here not the homeowner or the contractor.

You can hide behind the safety aspect all you want, as well as the fact it possibly is profit making for you, some of us still don't like the fact that we are just the middle man and the only true profiteers is the AFCI manufacturer when there is problems. Does Siemens pay for the solution to the problem I just mentioned? Heck no, but if they gain any information from it it was more free research and development paid for by the consumer or contractor. Ultimately the consumer does pay for R&D in the final sale, but it should be divided by all consumers as overhead, not indirectly provided for free by those that have an issue.

 

[romex jockey]

I would always say to my guys, "think outside the box".

I would simply like the NEC to 'think outside our borders' Magic One.
IIRC, he NEC has had 'International Electrical Code' on it's cover since the '02 cycle should consider living up to it

They claim afci protection is for fire & circuitry protection , not personal protection.

Well why not do what the IEC has done for it's tried/true main RCD's ?

If rumour of the '17 cycle 210.12's reformat to ALL 120V circuity comes to fruition, how can it be wrong to ask this?

~RJ~

 

[user 100]

Why should the brand of AFCI need to matter? They all are supposed to meet same listing standards for one thing, so they should all be able to be used in same applications. Get away from AFCI and into other items that have a common standard and you might find some have good and bad qualities, but they all meet same minimum standards and are acceptable for use based on those standards.

So now I have a Siemens panel in my house, but the Siemens AFCI don't get along with my new vacuum. Now I either have to get rid of my new vacuum (that has nothing wrong with it) or hire an electrician to put in a Square D subpanel and Square D AFCI because their AFCI doesn't have issues with my vacuum? That is BS, the AFCI manufacturers need to get more on same page here not the homeowner or the contractor.

:thumbsup:. About those customers having to replace appliances due to afci- most ordinary mortals can probably be told about an appliance not working correctly once, and will give the electrician the benefit of the doubt- it happens again and then the little light bulb goes off- "it works fine everywhere else, no smoke or fire or even a warm cord when plugged in at grandma's, so what's the deal? and/or "are these people really concerned about safety or are they just trying to pull a fast one in order to get more $$$ for troubleshooting?or "maybe these guys are incompetent." It's actually pretty easy to see where after a while they would begin to believe the ec is full of baloney. It should be unacceptable to have any modern circuit breaker protecting any gen use circuit in a home trip because it doesn't ​agree with a perfectly trouble free appliance.

 

[magictolight.com]

:thumbsup:. About those customers having to replace appliances due to afci- most ordinary mortals can probably be told about an appliance not working correctly once, and will give the electrician the benefit of the doubt- it happens again and then the little light bulb goes off- "it works fine everywhere else, no smoke or fire or even a warm cord when plugged in at grandma's, so what's the deal? and/or "are these people really concerned about safety or are they just trying to pull a fast one in order to get more $$$ for troubleshooting?or "maybe these guys are incompetent." It's actually pretty easy to see where after a while they would begin to believe the ec is full of baloney. It should be unacceptable to have any modern circuit breaker protecting any gen use circuit in a home trip because it doesn't ​agree with a perfectly trouble free appliance.

So we throw the entire technology out the window because of a 1 in a million situation. Seriously!!!! In our business we have a 100% satisfaction guarantee. If we can't satisfy the client we will gladly refund their money. No questions.

 

[kwired]

:thumbsup:. About those customers having to replace appliances due to afci- most ordinary mortals can probably be told about an appliance not working correctly once, and will give the electrician the benefit of the doubt- it happens again and then the little light bulb goes off- "it works fine everywhere else, no smoke or fire or even a warm cord when plugged in at grandma's, so what's the deal? and/or "are these people really concerned about safety or are they just trying to pull a fast one in order to get more $$$ for troubleshooting?or "maybe these guys are incompetent." It's actually pretty easy to see where after a while they would begin to believe the ec is full of baloney. It should be unacceptable to have any modern circuit breaker protecting any gen use circuit in a home trip because it doesn't ​agree with a perfectly trouble free appliance.

The electrician is the loser in those battles of an appliance not playing well with an AFCI device. AFCI manufacturer typically makes their money either way, if the EC makes money he is rewarded with badmouthing by the owner about how the EC ripped him off, if the EC solves the issue but doesn't make money or even if they don't take as much in as they deserve for all the time put into it- EC is the only loser of all three parties. I don't want to get very involved in those kind of things and staying away from residential work seems to be the way out of that. Residential work is enough of a gamble at times before this crap came along.

 

[romex jockey]

So we throw the entire technology out the window because of a 1 in a million situation. Seriously!!!! In our business we have a 100% satisfaction guarantee. If we can't satisfy the client we will gladly refund their money. No questions.

A recent refer recall , due to some afci-challenged led control, resulted in a world of 'Egg on EC face'

In my area, this meant 2nd home owners showing up to a pool of refer ooze in their kitchens, and often a lotta $$$ damage

You going to pay for that?

Trust me as i have been an EC for a long time that seen objectively as a trade, we'll never in a day live down the 'electrical events' we're not even responsible for

~RJ~

 

[user 100]

So we throw the entire technology out the window because of a 1 in a million situation. Seriously!!!! In our business we have a 100% satisfaction guarantee. If we can't satisfy the client we will gladly refund their money. No questions.

No we shouldn't, it's a great concept- but there are obviously still problems with compatibility that need to be worked on.

 

[magictolight.com]

A recent refer recall , due to some afci-challenged led control, resulted in a world of 'Egg on EC face'

In my area, this meant 2nd home owners showing up to a pool of refer ooze in their kitchens, and often a lotta $$$ damage

You going to pay for that?

Trust me as i have been an EC for a long time that seen objectively as a trade, we'll never in a day live down the 'electrical events' we're not even responsible for

~RJ~

This is true, but we run into events like these no matter what the technology is. Electrician's "red headed step child" just happens to be the AFCI. Go figure.

Like I said, we don't throw it all out because of a one in a million problem. We better embrace it....the code writer certainly are!

 

[iwire]

because of a one in a million problem. We better embrace it....the code writer certainly are!

It is not a one in a million problem.

Type AFCI tripping into Google and it self populates vacumes and treadmills.

I am confused, you specifically asked for others advice on this and you have written off every response that did not fit what your plan is.

That being the case

It's the best idea ever, your customers will love you, AFCIs will save them, there won't be any problems at all. All these other contractors having problems with them are just not as skilled as your team is.