Electrical Upgrade Procedures

[480sparky]

Instead of trying to put the genie back in the bottle some day in the future, why not just try to avoid this situation altogether? I think you're opening a big can of worms by trying to document a procedure, provide for proper training, etc. etc. I realize the real [git-'er-done] world is different than the OSHA mandates, but given any opportunity to have a line crew out there to disconnect power, I think you should take it. Ever wonder why there's shows like Judge Judy and Judge Alex and People's Court? So you can be bombarded by the ads for lawyers who start hawaking to you, "Have you been injured in a work-realted accident?..."
What you want to do would scare me, and I'm fearless.
Even the slightest mistake, oversight, or lack of judgement by one of your crew and he's toast.
Pun intended.

 

[Michael15956]

We have never had the POCO connect and reconnect a residential service on an upgrade. Personally I have no problem doing this work myself, I don't feel that, for me, it's unsafe or highly dangerous.

Thanks Trevor,

Any suggestions for installation procedures?

 

[mdshunk]

Any suggestions for installation procedures?

What sort of bugs do you use? That dictates a certain portion of the procedure. I go back and fourth between H-taps and Ampact taps.

 

[Michael15956]

What sort of bugs do you use? That dictates a certain portion of the procedure. I go back and fourth between H-taps and Ampact taps.

H-taps, but that is the reason for the OP. What kind to you think work better? Are the Ampack earier to install?

 

[mdshunk]

Are the Ampack earier to install?

Yeah, but you need a $1500 tool to shoot them on. They use a shotgun shell type load also. I think that the H-taps represent the best thing a contractor could probably use. Insulink's aren't a bad choice either, but you need specific one's for specific tap combinations. I like the range each H-tap gives.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Marc,
Where do I find the OSHA defintion of "distribution"? I have never considdered the service drop "distribution".
Don

 

[mdshunk]

Marc,
Where do I find the OSHA defintion of "distribution"? I have never considdered the service drop "distribution".
Don

POCO work is seperated into 3 categories. Generation, Transmission, and Distribution. The service drop is distribution. If it wasn't, not even the POCO lineman could work on it and be in compliance with OSHA rules.

 

[mxslick]

Here's what I have done..

Here's what I have done..

Any suggestions for installation procedures?

Hi guys, here's what I have done in the past on the service changes on my own homes, (and the POCO crew gave me high marks for diligence and cautiousness):

DISCLAIMER: I am not offering this as a safe method of doing this work, but only as an example of what I have done 4-5 times in the past!!

To disconnect: (All breakers off first!!)

Secure drop with rope; cut one hot leg, tape end well; cut other hot leg, tape end well; cut neutral (which is also the messenger); pull the meter (see below).

Reconnect: (Again, all breakers off)

Reset meter (most dangerous thing to do is pull or set live meter, I've had a few blow up); secure drop messenger to mast; reconnect neutral; select one hot leg, dress in position and carefully remove tape; wiggy from that leg on drop to intended connection on service(any voltage on wiggy means either load is on or a short in that leg); "tap" the connection together..no arc, make up connection, taping or covering as per connection method; repeat for other leg.

I was wearing PPE, namely long sleeve shirt, safety glasses, 600v rated rubber gloves, rubber sole shoes and on either non-conductive ladder or seated safely on the roof.

I feel I was being as safe as possible, and my only worry was actually being startled if any arcs happened, I felt reasonably protected.

Would I instruct someone else to do what I did? No way. I cannot allow someone else to assume that risk. When I worked for a local EC, our policy was to not touch the drop at all, unless specifically told to move it by the POCO. And yes, they actually told us to do it!! I did ONE drop live with that company, that was one of the times I had a meter explode when I tried to remove it. (I stupidly didn't cut the drop first.) After that, I refused to do it any more.

Finally, would I do it now? No. Not because I don't think I can do it safely, but because of liability.

 

[Psychojohn]

I Work In Industry And Have To Work On Live Equipment Quite Often. Insulated Gloves, Cutters, Crimpers, Arc Flash Clothing And A Fiberglass Ladder. No Big Deal.
Seems To Me The Most Dangerous Part Would Be Falling Off The Ladder.

 

[Psychojohn]

Hi guys, here's what I have done in the past on the service changes on my own homes, (and the POCO crew gave me high marks for diligence and cautiousness):

DISCLAIMER: I am not offering this as a safe method of doing this work, but only as an example of what I have done 4-5 times in the past!!

To disconnect: (All breakers off first!!)

Secure drop with rope; cut one hot leg, tape end well; cut other hot leg, tape end well; cut neutral (which is also the messenger); pull the meter (see below).

Reconnect: (Again, all breakers off)

Reset meter (most dangerous thing to do is pull or set live meter, I've had a few blow up); secure drop messenger to mast; reconnect neutral; select one hot leg, dress in position and carefully remove tape; wiggy from that leg on drop to intended connection on service(any voltage on wiggy means either load is on or a short in that leg); "tap" the connection together..no arc, make up connection, taping or covering as per connection method; repeat for other leg.

I was wearing PPE, namely long sleeve shirt, safety glasses, 600v rated rubber gloves, rubber sole shoes and on either non-conductive ladder or seated safely on the roof.

I feel I was being as safe as possible, and my only worry was actually being startled if any arcs happened, I felt reasonably protected.

Would I instruct someone else to do what I did? No way. I cannot allow someone else to assume that risk. When I worked for a local EC, our policy was to not touch the drop at all, unless specifically told to move it by the POCO. And yes, they actually told us to do it!! I did ONE drop live with that company, that was one of the times I had a meter explode when I tried to remove it. (I stupidly didn't cut the drop first.) After that, I refused to do it any more.

Finally, would I do it now? No. Not because I don't think I can do it safely, but because of liability.

Why did the meter explode?

 

[Brady Electric]

Electrical Upgrade Procedures

I agree it should be done by POCO but there is a time factor.
Ever since I've been in the Electric business in 1974 I was taught to:
1. pull the meter
2. take the load side loose
3. tear out old service and reinstall new service
4. set the new meter base beside the old meter base
5. after the install run a jumper wire from the new meter base to the old meter base and plug the meter back in.
6. call for inspection
7. after the inspection POCO will connect the new service rizor and then we come back and take down the old one
Since I went into business myself I always do it myself and don't let a helper do it. We have to remember always to be safe no matter how we do it.
I always were my hard hat and lineman gloves to be safe.
Now I have an ex-lineman working for me and we keep up his lineman license an we do it this way.
1. cut the old tap and take down the old service
2. install the new service
3. connect the new service to the old power drop with proper crimp taps using a crimp tool and tape them up
4. call for inspection and we are done
5. since we do a good job most of the time the power company doesn't even change the old service wire
6. Don't know about where you live but around here if we use 4/0 for a 200 amp service the power company sometimes uses 2/0 or less for there service which in most cases they don't change the old service drop and leave the taps we made alone. It up to them after we call it in for inspection
Never have understood why they don't have the same wire chart that we use but I thing we always over protect on wire size on services.
This is how I do things so most of all have the right safety tools and be safe and don't take chances if its too dangerous. Be safe and take care out there. Semper Fi

P.S. Hope you understand what I said and don't misread what I do.

 

[infinity]

We have a similar procedures to the ones posted here. Usually after we disconnect the old service we splice on a pigtail with a 20 amp fuse and a laundry drop for temp power. From that we plug in a three way portable GFCI and run out a few extension cords. Typically one for the guy working outside and one for the guy working inside, and let's not forget the radio. One thing I would note is that on reconnect we always connect the neutral last. The reason being, since most of the service upgrades around here are done with SE cable, we don't want the 3' or so of bare conductor actually connected. This way it can be bent far out of the way so that it isn't anywhere near the live phase conductors when they're being spliced.

Personally I've never felt uncomfortable doing this with the proper techniques, tools and equipment.

 

[iwire]

Resist the groupthink and read the section.

Marc your thoughts are interesting.

But If it was my money I would not count on OSHA agreeing with that interpretation.

If the company in question is an electrical company I think they will have a hard time winning that argument.

If the company was a line construction company I think they might have a better chance.

Maybe you are personally trained in line work but are the typically employees of companies doing residential service changes trained for line work.

Before anyone thinks I am nuts (well more nuts:smile: ) I have done these service changes myself and I may again.

What I am trying to point out is OSHAs mission is to basically bust our @*% and they are going to do so without the use of common sense.

If an electrician gets hurt doing one of these live cut ins you can bet the employer will suddenly meet the OSHA folks with their hands out.

Edit: added 'Not' where it should have been.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

The posters who have posted their procedures are all lacking in the most important part of the procedures, especially if they are to put them in writing...I do not see anyone mentioning the proper PPE or safety procedures.

How about a section written in the procedures that states the person performing these service changeouts has to have the proper training and documentation to backup the training.

Marc
I will repeat a little of what Bob has stated, because it is important for all to know/understand.

The part of OSHA that you have referenced is for the properly trained, which is mostly Utility/POCO type people. Their training is EXTENSIVE and EXPENSIVE and TIME CONSUMING and ONGOING every year. In the area that I work/live in (New York), there is no company other than LINE companies that I am aware of who provide this type of training.


For those who say they are fearless, that is great, but for most people in our industry it is the thought of keeping their jobs that helps them climb the ladder and perform these potentially hazardous jobs.

If you must do them, and I understand better than you may suppose I do, than get/provide the proper training.

I know...that is really dreaming.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I will add this to my general posts on electrical safety.
I perform mostly inspections and consulting when on jobsites these days. I also perform safety procedures. I have the PPE and the training to know what I can and cannot do. I may not perform it perfectly, but I am a lot, repeat, a lot safer in my work habits than I have been in the past.

 

[Brady Electric]

Electrical Upgrade Procedures

Trever, I do the same, I just forgot to put that in although with the use of more and more of battery tools we don't need power as much as before. As far as the neutral I usually tape it up that way its safer. I also feel comfortable doing these for about twenty five years. As far as OHSA I'll keep my thought to myself. Semper Fi

 

[ElectricianJeff]

OK, I'll try this.

Has anyone who has installed residential over head service upgrades contacted the local power company and have them disconnect the supply power? If so, how were the results?

Thanks,

Michael

Interesting thread and I didn't realize how nice I have it. I do mostly service upgrades and here's my procedure FWIW:

Call POCO a couple days in advance to set up disconnect, ask for first thing in the morning.

I show up 7-7:30 and start pulling wires from old panel.

The guys start there shift at 8:00 and get their calls for the day. I know most of them and they know I start earlier. They always cut me between 8:30 and 9:00.

At 9:00 I call the inspector and set up inspection for first thing after lunch. Serveral areas I work don't require a permit or inspection on upgrades and replacements.

They always cut me at the mast. If the overhead is supported from the mast and I am replacing it then they tie off to sewer vent, tree limb, lay it on the ground if theres no one around but me, etc.

I never have a power drop. I use either a generator, my truck invertor or the neighbor's house for temp. power.

I build the new service, hang new panel and run service conductors.

Inspector normally hits around 1:00-1:30 does his sticker and I call the POCO for reconnect. They come 30 minutes later hook me up and I finish running the circuits. Usually enjoying a cold one by 2:30-3:00 if all goes well.

I have only hooked one up live once. After a bad ice storm I had to replace one in a very remote area. I borrowed my buddys 4 wheeler to pull me and all my tools, ladder, etc. up a half mile steep hill which at the time was totally inaccessable do to 8"'s of ice and downed trees everywhere. I didn't want to bother the POCO, they had their hands full anyway. No permits or inspections were required because of the emergency situation.

I gained more respect for what they do that day. It was very sobering for me even with the right protection.

This thread makes me realize how nice I have it living in and around smaller communities.

Jeff

 

[mxslick]

The exploding meter saga...

The exploding meter saga...

Why did the meter explode?

Hi John..well, it was an old meter/breaker panel (I think it was a Pushmatic, but not sure, it was many years back).

I had removed the clamp ring and tried to pull the meter straight out, it wouldn't budge. I then tried a trick the poco guys told me, which was to give a firm slap on each side of the meter, then pull straight out. No dice. The last bit of advice was to smack the top, then the bottom, then pull out while tilting it down slightly.

That worked, as the meter began to come out...but in the process, I hear a loud crack, then the explosion!! The meter pretty much shot out of my hands and landed a few feet away. Not only did it give me a good scare but it really ticked me off too.

So I then, realizing my mistake, cut the drop loose and proceeded to remove that old panel with a 20lb sledge and a lot of choice words. The meter met the sledge next.

When the poco arrived a few hours later, the crew forman (who I knew well) took one look at the carnage and laughed. Luckily he covered up the meter caper so I didn't get charged for it.

The cause? The insulating support for the line lugs broke loose and contacted the can as I was pulling the meter. According to my poco friend, a very common thing on older gear, especially Zinsco and FPE.

Some time back I posted a link on a related thread here for a product to safely extract and install meters hot. If I can find the link/thread I'll come back and edit this...

 

[mxslick]

The posters who have posted their procedures are all lacking in the most important part of the procedures, especially if they are to put them in writing...I do not see anyone mentioning the proper PPE or safety procedures.

Reread my first post above please.

 

[dezwitinc]

Service Change

Service Change

I don't know how old you are but cutting hot services loose and then reconnecting them is something reserved for youth I guess.
We used to this all the time in the midwest but after getting knocked off the roof because of stupidity, that stopped.
I don't know what it is about electricians that make them think that are are not vulnerable to flowing electrons, but these days I avoid them whenever possible.
Here in Florida, the inspectors and FPL are very cooperative when it comes to disconnects, inspections and reconnects.
USE THEM.
Your life should not be put in jeopardy for any amount of money or convenience of the customer.