Michael15956
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Ohio
Nice story John!
Enjoyed reading it.
Enjoyed reading it.
Electrical Upgrade Procedures
- Thread starter Michael15956
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
Thanks. That story came to be because of this story.
I'd been in the trades a few years when we were working on a house on the beach in Malibu.The service came up on the side of the garage to a pull box and then continued to the main service panel at the rear of the house. I was doing the hook up at the pull box. I had already striped the first POCO conductor and was working on the second one when I heard a pop and saw a little puff of smoke. I looked down and the whole end of my knife was gone blade and all. As I climbed down the later feeling a little confused, my boss and my brother both came running around the garage screaming wanting to know if I was alright. I said yeah and told them it was no big deal and what I had seen and heard. My boss said, boy that "pop" sounded like a cannon going off and a huge cloud of smoke came billowing over the garage. My brother agreed with him and said they were sure that they were going to find me dead. Turns out that it was lead coated conductors and somehow I had striped the first one with out touching the lead and the copper at the same time of course not so luck on the second one.
The guy I was working with the day of the cement truck knew that story too and when that chute dropped he about jumped out of his pants too. Like I said funny afterwards but we almost had to give each other CPR.
I'd been in the trades a few years when we were working on a house on the beach in Malibu.The service came up on the side of the garage to a pull box and then continued to the main service panel at the rear of the house. I was doing the hook up at the pull box. I had already striped the first POCO conductor and was working on the second one when I heard a pop and saw a little puff of smoke. I looked down and the whole end of my knife was gone blade and all. As I climbed down the later feeling a little confused, my boss and my brother both came running around the garage screaming wanting to know if I was alright. I said yeah and told them it was no big deal and what I had seen and heard. My boss said, boy that "pop" sounded like a cannon going off and a huge cloud of smoke came billowing over the garage. My brother agreed with him and said they were sure that they were going to find me dead. Turns out that it was lead coated conductors and somehow I had striped the first one with out touching the lead and the copper at the same time of course not so luck on the second one.
The guy I was working with the day of the cement truck knew that story too and when that chute dropped he about jumped out of his pants too. Like I said funny afterwards but we almost had to give each other CPR.
Michael15956
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Ohio
Wow, confused on this part though.cowboyjwc said:
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
The POCO used a lead coated wire because of the salt air, so I was told. So basically you had, in reverse order, the copper wire, a thin layer of rubber, the lead shield, and then the outer insulation.
On the first conductor I knew I was having trouble, but I was being careful and I guess my knife didn't cut through the thin layer of rubber. On the second one I got a little more aggresive and "pop".
At the transformer the lead is grounded, I believe. I had never seen it before and to tell you the truth I have never seen it since.
On the first conductor I knew I was having trouble, but I was being careful and I guess my knife didn't cut through the thin layer of rubber. On the second one I got a little more aggresive and "pop".
At the transformer the lead is grounded, I believe. I had never seen it before and to tell you the truth I have never seen it since.
- Location
- Massachusetts
jim1 said:
No, not really
Even with the proper PPE an electrician can only work hot for troubleshooting or when shutting down creates a bigger hazard.
PPE does not allow us to do anything we want.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
Connecticut Residential Cut & Reconnect Policy
Connecticut Residential Cut & Reconnect Policy
SECTION 2: Residential Cut & Reconnect Policy
Residential Cut and Reconnect Policy Restricted to Two-Wire
120 Volt or Three-Wire 120/240 Volt Single-Phase Overhead
Residential Services of 400 Amps or Less.
Definitions
Licensed Electrician - a Master electrician holding a valid E-1 or E-9
license issued by the State of Connecticut. Department of Consumer
Protection - Occupational & Professional Licensing Division. The
Licensed Electrician (hereinafter referred to as the electrician) is
responsible for all work performed under this policy.
E-2 License - an E-2 license holder can only perform electrical work
while under the employ of a contractor licensed for such work.
E-9 License - an E-9 license-holder is restricted to residential and
light commercial work only. New E-9 licenses are no longer offered
in Connecticut.
Local Municipal Authority - a duly appointed building code official,
responsible for inspecting and ensuring that contractor work is in
compliance with all applicable local, State and Federal regulations.
Self-Contained Meter - a meter capable of measuring the entire
usage of the electric service without the use of current and/or voltage
transformers.
Policy
1. In order to perform a cut and reconnect a Licensed E-1 or
E-9 Electrician must read the policy and acknowledge
understanding and compliance by signing a letter of
agreement and returning it to CL&P. Only Electricians who
have signed a letter of agreement will be allowed to cut and
reconnect under this policy. Homeowners are not
authorized to cut and reconnect electric services. See
Section 1, Item I (page 5) for homeowner service changes.
2. The electrician shall cut the service entrance cable at the
weatherhead, replace or repair the service and re-connect it
in compliance with the requirements of this booklet. This
work may also be performed by an E-2 Journeyman or
Apprentice working under the direct supervision of an E-1 or
E-9 licensee. All applicable rules of the State of Connecticut
Department of Consumer Protection - Occupational &
Professional Licensing Division apply.
3. The electrician must contact us at least fifteen days prior to
starting work to avoid potential code violations or noncompliance
with our requirements.
4. The electrician must obtain a valid Customer Service
Request (CRS) number by submitting a Request for Electric
Service to CL&P either through the internet on the CL&P
website (www.cl-p.com) or by telephone (1-888-544-4826).
The request must indicate in the job description that the
work involves “cut and reconnect”. Further, this work must
be completed within 60 days from the date of the request.
5. The electrician must receive our approval prior to starting
work if the point of attachment is going to be changed or
there are existing clearance conflicts.
6. The electrician is responsible for obtaining the appropriate
permits from the local municipal authority in advance of
starting work. Jumpers and optically clear meter socket
covers are available at most municipal building official
offices or the local CL&P office.
7. The service must be cut at the point of attachment on the
line side of the existing service drop connectors.
8. The service must be reconnected utilizing properly sized
connectors as listed below.
Phase/Hot Leg /Conductor
• Properly taped Parallel Groove Connector
• Properly taped Pliers-applied Wedge Connector
• Insulated Compression Sleeve
Neutral Conductor
• Bare Parallel Groove Connector
• Bare Pliers-applied Wedge Connector
• Bare Compression Sleeve
9. The electrician will install only Company-approved jumpers to
avoid damage to the meter socket and optically clear meter
socket cover(s) to ensure public safety and provide access for
visual inspection.
10. The electrician is responsible for returning the old meter to the
Company by leaving it near the new meter socket. In no case
shall the old meter be reinstalled in the new meter socket.
11. All CL&P requirements, the National Electrical Code, State and
Municipal building requirements must be met.
12. The electrician is responsible for obtaining municipal approval
and must advise the Company (1-888-544-4826) within one
business day of completion of Steps 2 through 10, above.
The Company
1. The Company will install a meter after ten business days unless
notified of a building code violation by the Local Municipal
Authority. Installation of a meter does not supersede the
requirements of an inspection approval by the Local
Municipal Authority.
Non-Compliance and Violations
1. In cases of non-compliance with any of the requirements of the
Cut & Reconnect Policy, including non-compliance with NEC,
OSHA, and State and local Building codes, the Company will
send a written inquiry to the electrician, customer and Local
Municipal Authority, as necessary to resolve the problem.
2. Multiple letters to an electrician will result in notification of the
appropriate State and Municipal authorities. Such notification
constitutes a violation letter.
3. The electrician will be notified in writing that a violation letter has
been sent and that their privilege to perform work under the Cut
& Reconnect Policy may be suspended. In the case where risk
of public safety is a factor, the Company will immediately
suspend Cut & Reconnect privileges for said electrician.
4. The Occupational and Professional Licensing Division of the
State of Connecticut Department of Consumer Protection will
review violations to determine if Connecticut General Statute,
Section 20-334 has been violated and will take appropriate
action, up to and including penalties, as described in the
Connecticut General Statute, Section 20-341.
5. The electrician will be billed for any and all costs that may be
incurred to correct a violation.
Connecticut Residential Cut & Reconnect Policy
SECTION 2
Residential
Cut & Reconnect PolicySECTION 2: Residential Cut & Reconnect Policy
Residential Cut and Reconnect Policy Restricted to Two-Wire
120 Volt or Three-Wire 120/240 Volt Single-Phase Overhead
Residential Services of 400 Amps or Less.
Definitions
Licensed Electrician - a Master electrician holding a valid E-1 or E-9
license issued by the State of Connecticut. Department of Consumer
Protection - Occupational & Professional Licensing Division. The
Licensed Electrician (hereinafter referred to as the electrician) is
responsible for all work performed under this policy.
E-2 License - an E-2 license holder can only perform electrical work
while under the employ of a contractor licensed for such work.
E-9 License - an E-9 license-holder is restricted to residential and
light commercial work only. New E-9 licenses are no longer offered
in Connecticut.
Local Municipal Authority - a duly appointed building code official,
responsible for inspecting and ensuring that contractor work is in
compliance with all applicable local, State and Federal regulations.
Self-Contained Meter - a meter capable of measuring the entire
usage of the electric service without the use of current and/or voltage
transformers.
Policy
1. In order to perform a cut and reconnect a Licensed E-1 or
E-9 Electrician must read the policy and acknowledge
understanding and compliance by signing a letter of
agreement and returning it to CL&P. Only Electricians who
have signed a letter of agreement will be allowed to cut and
reconnect under this policy. Homeowners are not
authorized to cut and reconnect electric services. See
Section 1, Item I (page 5) for homeowner service changes.
2. The electrician shall cut the service entrance cable at the
weatherhead, replace or repair the service and re-connect it
in compliance with the requirements of this booklet. This
work may also be performed by an E-2 Journeyman or
Apprentice working under the direct supervision of an E-1 or
E-9 licensee. All applicable rules of the State of Connecticut
Department of Consumer Protection - Occupational &
Professional Licensing Division apply.
3. The electrician must contact us at least fifteen days prior to
starting work to avoid potential code violations or noncompliance
with our requirements.
4. The electrician must obtain a valid Customer Service
Request (CRS) number by submitting a Request for Electric
Service to CL&P either through the internet on the CL&P
website (www.cl-p.com) or by telephone (1-888-544-4826).
The request must indicate in the job description that the
work involves “cut and reconnect”. Further, this work must
be completed within 60 days from the date of the request.
5. The electrician must receive our approval prior to starting
work if the point of attachment is going to be changed or
there are existing clearance conflicts.
6. The electrician is responsible for obtaining the appropriate
permits from the local municipal authority in advance of
starting work. Jumpers and optically clear meter socket
covers are available at most municipal building official
offices or the local CL&P office.
7. The service must be cut at the point of attachment on the
line side of the existing service drop connectors.
8. The service must be reconnected utilizing properly sized
connectors as listed below.
Phase/Hot Leg /Conductor
• Properly taped Parallel Groove Connector
• Properly taped Pliers-applied Wedge Connector
• Insulated Compression Sleeve
Neutral Conductor
• Bare Parallel Groove Connector
• Bare Pliers-applied Wedge Connector
• Bare Compression Sleeve
9. The electrician will install only Company-approved jumpers to
avoid damage to the meter socket and optically clear meter
socket cover(s) to ensure public safety and provide access for
visual inspection.
10. The electrician is responsible for returning the old meter to the
Company by leaving it near the new meter socket. In no case
shall the old meter be reinstalled in the new meter socket.
11. All CL&P requirements, the National Electrical Code, State and
Municipal building requirements must be met.
12. The electrician is responsible for obtaining municipal approval
and must advise the Company (1-888-544-4826) within one
business day of completion of Steps 2 through 10, above.
The Company
1. The Company will install a meter after ten business days unless
notified of a building code violation by the Local Municipal
Authority. Installation of a meter does not supersede the
requirements of an inspection approval by the Local
Municipal Authority.
Non-Compliance and Violations
1. In cases of non-compliance with any of the requirements of the
Cut & Reconnect Policy, including non-compliance with NEC,
OSHA, and State and local Building codes, the Company will
send a written inquiry to the electrician, customer and Local
Municipal Authority, as necessary to resolve the problem.
2. Multiple letters to an electrician will result in notification of the
appropriate State and Municipal authorities. Such notification
constitutes a violation letter.
3. The electrician will be notified in writing that a violation letter has
been sent and that their privilege to perform work under the Cut
& Reconnect Policy may be suspended. In the case where risk
of public safety is a factor, the Company will immediately
suspend Cut & Reconnect privileges for said electrician.
4. The Occupational and Professional Licensing Division of the
State of Connecticut Department of Consumer Protection will
review violations to determine if Connecticut General Statute,
Section 20-334 has been violated and will take appropriate
action, up to and including penalties, as described in the
Connecticut General Statute, Section 20-341.
5. The electrician will be billed for any and all costs that may be
incurred to correct a violation.
jameshot
Member
- Location
- NEW ORLEANS
right tools for the job
right tools for the job
I have been working residential meter pan and fuse panel/breaker replacement for years now and I have always considered it safe as long as I had and used the proper equipment/tools for the job. Its one part of the job you want to take your time on and not rush.When I first started doing electrical work years ago I always like to watch and talk to the electrical utility personel on the hook up and connection of the service it was always something interesting to watch.An old timer named 'BUDDY' (ENTERGY)- NEW ORLEANS) always gave me some pointers on the live working of secondary drops and still remember him today..Investing in the proper tools is a must to do the job right and safe.
1.PROPER LADDERS ARE A MUST
2.GLOVES AND SLEEVES
3.INSULATED 1000 VOLT TOOLS SOCKET SETS,HEX BITS RATCHETS.SCREWDRIVERS
4.BURNDY H TAPS THE BEST WIDE RANGE AND CHEAP
5.BURNDY MD-6 CRIMP TOOL W BRUSH GUARDS ECONOMICAL AND EASY TO USE, GREAT CONNECTION
6.2 1/2 INCH 3-M BLACK TAPE
7. PROPER VOLTAGE TESTER
right tools for the job
I have been working residential meter pan and fuse panel/breaker replacement for years now and I have always considered it safe as long as I had and used the proper equipment/tools for the job. Its one part of the job you want to take your time on and not rush.When I first started doing electrical work years ago I always like to watch and talk to the electrical utility personel on the hook up and connection of the service it was always something interesting to watch.An old timer named 'BUDDY' (ENTERGY)- NEW ORLEANS) always gave me some pointers on the live working of secondary drops and still remember him today..Investing in the proper tools is a must to do the job right and safe.
1.PROPER LADDERS ARE A MUST
2.GLOVES AND SLEEVES
3.INSULATED 1000 VOLT TOOLS SOCKET SETS,HEX BITS RATCHETS.SCREWDRIVERS
4.BURNDY H TAPS THE BEST WIDE RANGE AND CHEAP
5.BURNDY MD-6 CRIMP TOOL W BRUSH GUARDS ECONOMICAL AND EASY TO USE, GREAT CONNECTION
6.2 1/2 INCH 3-M BLACK TAPE
7. PROPER VOLTAGE TESTER
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
Did one Thursday. Cut and tape the overhead, demo and rebuild the service, reconnect the overhead, collect the money, call for inspection. 
On the rare occasion that I called poco, they will disconnect from the transformer, but no specific time.
On the rare occasion that I called poco, they will disconnect from the transformer, but no specific time.
JohnConnolly
Senior Member
- Location
- Phoenix AZ
I have done probably 100 service upgrades in my career, many uninspected (in the olden days).
EVERYTHING now days is inspected by both the cities (major metro area, Phx AZand surrounding areas) and POCO's (2).
In MY opinion it is not that dangerous if basic guidelines are followed and the POCO installatiion is safe and secure. You are just cutting a wire and reinsulating it...right? Just focus and don't do anything stupid.
That being said there are a lot of smart people out there who have done stupid things.
POCO linemen are trained to deal with the service drops and should be the ones disconnecting and re connecting.
One main issue is the condition of the conductors. A LOT of times the are sun baked and split. You DON'T want that liabilty.
Another issue is the placement of the transformers. GENERALLY they are well above the low voltage service drops but occaisionally I will come across one that is below, causing a potentially SERIOUS accident if the triplex comes into contact with it (my one and only near death experience).
One more issue is what to do with the drop during the upgrade. In the olden days I would just lay them on the ground and hope that the installation at the pole was secure. The POCO's here tie them off to an AC unit, Vent stack, or what ever is handy and secure using mule tape. If they are replacing the drop, they remove it as part of the disconnect.
The down side of having POCO disconnect is that it puts a few more people into the loop. MOST of our upgrades are in occupied residences and need to be powered up the same day. It it a real struggle sometimes to get everything torn out and put back together in such a short time. Some of the problems we encounter are:
1. POCO shows up late (or not at all..whoops) The guys are there to do the work, the customer has planned his day around it and because of an error in the office, no one shows up. It happens all the time here.
2.POCO or city inspectotrs show up too EARLY and I'm half done. I have had them REFUSE to return. It happens all the time here.
3. City inspectors don't show up at ALL. They always say "I'm too busy". POCO won't reconnect without city clearance.
4. Paperwork gets lost. The city inspector calls his office who the FAX clearance to the POCO. Come on now, it's 2007. Who sends a FAX? The fax gets lost or the machine is out of paper or the person who is supposed to take the fax to the dispatcher has gone home to take her cat to the vet.
5. POCO doesn't come back to re connect. Shift changes here are at 2 PM. It's like a whole new world where no one talks to anyone else. The crew that disconnected are gone and they could not care less about the customer. Neither POCO has a decent system set up to deal with this. I have had customers without power SEVERAL times because of this. I have reconnected myself more than once.
6. POCO changes their regulations without notice OR explanation. What we have been doing for years is now unacceptable and has to be re done. Send out an email dammit! Cutler Hammer came out with a nice 200 amp resi all in one panel that would work for underground as well as overhead. All you had to do was relocate the jugs. Some genius at APS decides that this is a bad idea and bans them from their acceptible equipment list. We find out the hard way.
Bottom line is that POCO should disconnect and reconnect. It's a good time to inspect the drop. Just understand that it take HOURS to do the re installation and have someone available to inspect (and or replace) and reconnect the drop when they are done.
As far as guidelines, the obvious ones are :
1. Proper training to inspect drop.
2. Proper equipment ie correct ladder, gloves, tools and tape.
3. Properly secure the old drop if it is being re used.
EVERYTHING now days is inspected by both the cities (major metro area, Phx AZand surrounding areas) and POCO's (2).
In MY opinion it is not that dangerous if basic guidelines are followed and the POCO installatiion is safe and secure. You are just cutting a wire and reinsulating it...right? Just focus and don't do anything stupid.
That being said there are a lot of smart people out there who have done stupid things.
POCO linemen are trained to deal with the service drops and should be the ones disconnecting and re connecting.
One main issue is the condition of the conductors. A LOT of times the are sun baked and split. You DON'T want that liabilty.
Another issue is the placement of the transformers. GENERALLY they are well above the low voltage service drops but occaisionally I will come across one that is below, causing a potentially SERIOUS accident if the triplex comes into contact with it (my one and only near death experience).
One more issue is what to do with the drop during the upgrade. In the olden days I would just lay them on the ground and hope that the installation at the pole was secure. The POCO's here tie them off to an AC unit, Vent stack, or what ever is handy and secure using mule tape. If they are replacing the drop, they remove it as part of the disconnect.
The down side of having POCO disconnect is that it puts a few more people into the loop. MOST of our upgrades are in occupied residences and need to be powered up the same day. It it a real struggle sometimes to get everything torn out and put back together in such a short time. Some of the problems we encounter are:
1. POCO shows up late (or not at all..whoops) The guys are there to do the work, the customer has planned his day around it and because of an error in the office, no one shows up. It happens all the time here.
2.POCO or city inspectotrs show up too EARLY and I'm half done. I have had them REFUSE to return. It happens all the time here.
3. City inspectors don't show up at ALL. They always say "I'm too busy". POCO won't reconnect without city clearance.
4. Paperwork gets lost. The city inspector calls his office who the FAX clearance to the POCO. Come on now, it's 2007. Who sends a FAX? The fax gets lost or the machine is out of paper or the person who is supposed to take the fax to the dispatcher has gone home to take her cat to the vet.
5. POCO doesn't come back to re connect. Shift changes here are at 2 PM. It's like a whole new world where no one talks to anyone else. The crew that disconnected are gone and they could not care less about the customer. Neither POCO has a decent system set up to deal with this. I have had customers without power SEVERAL times because of this. I have reconnected myself more than once.
6. POCO changes their regulations without notice OR explanation. What we have been doing for years is now unacceptable and has to be re done. Send out an email dammit! Cutler Hammer came out with a nice 200 amp resi all in one panel that would work for underground as well as overhead. All you had to do was relocate the jugs. Some genius at APS decides that this is a bad idea and bans them from their acceptible equipment list. We find out the hard way.
Bottom line is that POCO should disconnect and reconnect. It's a good time to inspect the drop. Just understand that it take HOURS to do the re installation and have someone available to inspect (and or replace) and reconnect the drop when they are done.
As far as guidelines, the obvious ones are :
1. Proper training to inspect drop.
2. Proper equipment ie correct ladder, gloves, tools and tape.
3. Properly secure the old drop if it is being re used.
Last edited:
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Possibly true. Oddly, this is right from one POCO's rules book:wireman71 said:
A licensed electrical contractor who is upgrading or performing maintenance on a single-phase overhead service of 200 amps or less, and not changing the point of attachment, will be required to disconnect and reconnect to the Company’s service drop, unless a two wire service drop is involved or other unusual circumstances exist. The connection must be made with permanent connectors. The Company recommends that all connections to the service drop, by the contractor, be made with compression connectors. Appropriate and properly applied mechanical connectors are also considered permanent.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
JohnConnolly said:
I've noticed that customer service from the poco is almost non-existent these days, at least when it comes to this stuff. Particularly when a large company from England comes and buys all the local poco's and the gas company.
- Location
- Massachusetts
do it hot said:
Sure most of us have done it.
Regarless it is an OSHA violtion for us to 'do it hot' and we should start trying to change our mind set on this.
I might as well post this from OSHA here as well
- Location
- Massachusetts
realolman said:
Yeah that one puzzles me as well.
- Status