Electrical Upgrade Procedures

[mdshunk]

The part of OSHA that you have referenced is for the properly trained, which is mostly Utility/POCO type people. Their training is EXTENSIVE and EXPENSIVE and TIME CONSUMING and ONGOING every year.

Yes, that is probably the main focus of that section. I post it to argue the incorrect assertion that it may not be done. Fact is, you comply with that section, and it may be done.

Now you're trying to act like there are no electrical contractors in your area that don't have a line crew? I can name three in my market area right off the top of my head.

 

[peter d]

For me, it boils down to this. Who is more equipped to do the job safely? A lineman has insulated gloves, insulated tools, a bucket truck, and years of training to do live work. Your average electrician who does residential work will likely have none of these things.

 

[mdshunk]

For me, it boils down to this. Who is more equipped to do the job safely? A lineman has insulated gloves, insulated tools, a bucket truck, and years of training to do live work. Your average electrician who does residential work will likely have none of these things.

Very true, but you're talking about your average electrician.

The poo-pooer's are speaking to every electrician, many of whom are above average and some are properly trained and equipped. I resent being lumped into the group of average electricians.

 

[petersonra]

Very true, but you're talking about your average electrician.

The poo-pooer's are speaking to every electrician, many of whom are above average and some are properly trained and equipped. I resent being lumped into the group of average electricians.

Keep in mind that 50% of all electricians are below average.

 

[480sparky]

50% of all electrians are below median.

 

[Brady Electric]

Electrical Upgrade Procedures

Very true, but you're talking about your average electrician.

The poo-pooer's are speaking to every electrician, many of whom are above average and some are properly trained and equipped. I resent being lumped into the group of average electricians.

I agree with Marc.
I have been doing this since 1974 and never been hurt or hurt anyone else.
It would be nice to always use POCO but it take allot of time here.
The electrician that tells how he does it by starting early, working with the POCO and Inspection Department in one day that's great but here that only happens in our best of dreams.
Also it would up the price allot and take time I don''t have.
For those of you that feel its to dangerous it probably is and you shouldn't do it. But to the one's of us that do it all the time its just a normal thing.
Thanks Marc for your comments.
Semper Fi

 

[peter d]

For those of you that feel its to dangerous it probably is and you shouldn't do it. But to the one's of us that do it all the time its just a normal thing.

Working on anything live is always dangerous and isn't just a "normal" thing for an electrician. If you don't feel that cutting in a service is a dangerous job, then you need to reevaluate your thinking. Cutting in a service is particularly dangerous because of the lack of OCPD and high available fault current and arc flash hazard.

As I've already mentioned, I know it's a real world and in this day and age of non-existent customer service from the poco's, I expect that more and more electricians will have to do this job. But that doesn't mean it's right.

 

[realolman]

Well thanks Marc,

You presented a good case for not being an OSHA problem. .......

.......This is the kind of stuff I was looking for help with on this post.

Guess I shouldn't have made the post in the first place, sorry.

I don't think you should apologize. I think this is an excellent topic and an excellent place to post it.

Sounds like mostly you're talking about overhead services. I think having an insulated bucket truck would be a large first step toward performing this task safely.

 

[infinity]

I don't think you should apologize. I think this is an excellent topic and an excellent place to post it.

Sounds like mostly you're talking about overhead services. I think having an insulated bucket truck would be a large first step toward performing this task safely.

Recently I witnessed the POCO making the final connections on an overhead service at a single family home. The guy set up his fiberglass ladder and tool bucket next to the service in the driveway. He climbed up the ladder, put on his gloves and cut away the temp connections and installed the permanent ones. He did this while the drop was energized and performed the task exactly as I would have done it, albeit much more slowly.

 

[busman]

Reset meter (most dangerous thing to do is pull or set live meter, I've had a few blow up);

I've only had one meter enclosure explode (one IS enough). The cause was underground laterals pulling on the meter terminals had cracked a plastic insulator. The meter tabs in the jaws kept the terminal in-place until the meter was removed (by me with PPE on and at the direction of the local PoCo - they did not have a crew available to do it even though I had scheduled days in advance). About 15 seconds after the meter was out, the terminal put enough pressure on the rubber spacer blanket for it to arc. Sounded like a bomb went off and scared about 2 years off my life.

I saved the meter can. Will try to post photos later today (with lots of help, I think I can finally do this reliably).

Mark

 

[Michael15956]

Mark,

Did the transformer short out at this time?

 

[busman]

OK - here's the picture:

Through the clear plastic in the center of the photo, you can see the cracked red insulator. Towards the top of the photo, you can see two missing pieces of steel, each about the size of a pea, with the insulating blanket in between. This is where the arc occured. Fortunately, it was 120v and as soon as this metal vaporized, the arc extinguished. Some small pieces of the molten steel melted into my safety glass lenses. They're still there. You can probably see how the meter held the terminal in place until it was removed.

No - the primary OCPD never opened.

Mark

 

[Brady Electric]

Electrical Upgrade Procedures

Working on anything live is always dangerous and isn't just a "normal" thing for an electrician. If you don't feel that cutting in a service is a dangerous job, then you need to reevaluate your thinking. Cutting in a service is particularly dangerous because of the lack of OCPD and high available fault current and arc flash hazard.

As I've already mentioned, I know it's a real world and in this day and age of non-existent customer service from the poco's, I expect that more and more electricians will have to do this job. But that doesn't mean it's right.

Still don't know what upsets you so much. Its just part of the job. The Electrical field is a wide one and some of us have more experience than others in all parts of this field. I have seen more people get hurt on commercial jobs working on live panels and running fish tape from point "A" to the panel. Also by trusting a circuit to be off because someone said so and it be on. I never take anyone's word on it I check it myself. Some electricians just do one or two jobs all there life such as house wiring (no services live) on anything else live. On just running EMT on the job. Fortunally I have been introduced to all kinds of jobs in the last twenty five years. I always approach each job as dangerous and with caution and complete it as safe as I possibility can. That's my four cents worth!

 

[peter d]

Still don't know what upsets you so much. Its just part of the job.

The "big deal" is that utility service conductors have no OCPD and are capable of delivering large amounts of fault current and present a significant arc flash danger.

I'm sure some of you have seen videos on youtube of a service or overhead low voltage conductors under fault conditions. They just keep arcing and flashing and burning until the Poco pulls the primary cutouts on the transformer.

Exposing one's self to unnecesary danger is not "part of the job." Am I guilty? Yes, I've done my fair share of live work that is not permitted by OSHA. But now that I've been educated on the danger I realize how stupid it was.

 

[andinator]

The fact that some of us, as electricians, choose to work circuits live either with ocpd involved or on the POCO side fascinates me. Let me preface this by saying I'm guilty to . The speed in which we can be injured or killed or permanently disabled in our job THRU NO FAULT OF OUR OWN is measured in milliseconds and in the case of heart stoppage milliamps! It kind of speeks to the arrogance of our breed.....

 

[480sparky]

My fourth-year teacher (who is also on CMP3), likes to tell the story of an electrician who dropped his screwdriver into the top lugs of an energized meter socket. He is quoted as saying "I watched the whole thing.... the screwdriver falling, it making contact with the lugs, the first arc, the molten material striking my eyes...." In other words, he didn't have time to close his eyes.

 

[Davids1964]

Here in Va Dominion Power will finish the service change if the SE cable is less than 22'. Most service changes fall in this line. I've done at least 15 service changes and I have not once had to change the SE cables.

 

[LarryFine]

Here in Va Dominion Power will finish the service change if the SE cable is less than 22'. Most service changes fall in this line. I've done at least 15 service changes and I have not once had to change the SE cables.

Most true. We basically use the old meter base as our "disconnect", but of course we remove all load before pulling the meter.

We mount the new meter, swinging the old one aside if necessary, and jumper the load lugs of the old meter to the new meter base. I try to use the load lugs of the new base to join the conductors.

Welcome to the forum, David!

 

[zog]

Looks like Don is quoting the new OSHA standard that is effective on 8/13, he is correct in that statement.

Never mind, posted before I read the other 5 pages.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I've done many many service changes and never once had the power turned off, underground or overhead. Mostly for the reasons stated in earlier posts, no guarantee of when they will come out to shut it off and no guarantee of when they will come back and hook it up.

yes I know there is no OCPD, but it is still only 110 volts and you have as much chance getting killed hooking up or unhooking the drop as you do replacing an outlet hot.

The funny story is the time I was just getting ready to rehook the drop. I had just started to cut the insulation when I heard a load bang, knife went one way off the roof, I went the other way (luckly on the roof), service drop went another way. When I finally gained my composure I looked over and a concrete truck next store had just dropped his chute. It was funny afterwards.

People who have watched me do these jobs usally comment that I'm going 100mph until I get to the hook up, then everything slows down, the joking around comes to a stop and caution and awarness take over and become the key to safety.