FIRE! Red FPE Breakers please help!

[markebenson]

I am working on this job with RED Fpe Stablok breakers. When closing a metal j box "power on" an old nicked wire made contact with the side of the box but did not trip the breaker, it literally blew the wire in half! So for knowledge I went back to the panel and directly connected a piece of wire to a different RED Fpe breaker in the panel and shorted the other end on purpose to ground to see the result. That breaker did not trip either. It blew the end off the wire!

I really need input on this when if I encounter more of the panel.

Is the black handle Stablock different? or the same problem. I was told black handle pink label are ok. Is this true?

The grey cased Canadian Replacement is that better?

 

[cpinetree]

They are all JUNK!
Why take the liability of working on / in them. Just replace it or move on.

 

[augie47]

Here are just two of many articles concerning FPE safety:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...gation-Finds-Decades-of-Danger-171406921.html

https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-...nd-Provides-Safety-Information-For-Consumers/

 

[ptonsparky]

I am working on this job with RED Fpe Stablok breakers. When closing a metal j box "power on" an old nicked wire made contact with the side of the box but did not trip the breaker, it literally blew the wire in half! So for knowledge I went back to the panel and directly connected a piece of wire to a different RED Fpe breaker in the panel and shorted the other end on purpose to ground to see the result. That breaker did not trip either. It blew the end off the wire!

I really need input on this when if I encounter more of the panel. Don't short things to ground first of all!

Is the black handle Stablock different? or the same problem. I was told black handle pink label are ok. Is this true?

The grey cased Canadian Replacement is that better?

Upgrade the service. Replace the panel and sleep well, otherwise toss and turn for eternity. Or walk away if they can't/don't want to afford your service. Easier said than done on some occasions.

 

[Chamuit]

Replace them with UBI breakers. You can buy them at HD.

They are ETL listed devices. Connecticut Electric, look at "Overview."

 

[peter d]

Replace the panel if possible, which is far and away the best option. I would push hard for that, if you have any influence in that process. Otherwise use the replacement breakers recommended above.

 

[JFletcher]

Pink label/white dot were supposedly made to UL standards. The black "cross" breakers are original, perhaps made while FPE was reputable. Those breakers I doubt are available as NOS and could be pushing 65 years old if used. I do not know when they started making the red label ones; there is one of those in the panel.

I know nothing of the UBI replacements but given the track record of FPE, I dont suppose they could be any worse.

These were single pole breakers that didnt trip with a dead short? wow. The double pole ones were much more notorious for failure. I have a single pole 15A in this FPE panel (ca 1953) that has probably tripped 500 times over its lifespan. It is apparently original to the panel. A tripped double pole would go right in the trash. I would not reset it and try to failure test it lest wire melt behind a plaster wall (fun stuff; not).

eta: that 15A breaker will not carry 20A more than maybe 30 seconds. 1500W space heater on high, a few light, and the TV, and you're in the dark pretty quickly. I dont know how it would react to an instantaneous short; I try to avoid doing that when possible. and FPE doesnt have a lock on breakers that dont trip with dead shorts; Ive actually seen more CH CH breakers (tan handle) hold under extreme fault conditions than anything else. They are what taught me to respect 120V, because before then I'd never seen such a fireball come from a 20A breaker and 12ga wire.

 

[peter d]

My friend was doing some demo in his basement (old 70's basement going in the dumpster.) He had an FPE panel and when he was demoing, he caused a few short circuits in various places. He found out directly just how bad FPE is. :lol::lol:

Yes, I did replace the service. :thumbsup:

 

[Jraef]

I'm not going to defend FPE breakers, but I think this needs to be said.

Purposely grounding a circuit to test a breaker's functionality is not only an invalid test, it's extremely dangerous! :slaphead:

I'll be that if you take any given breaker and do that, some will trip, some will not. The amount of resistance to ground that takes place in your "touch test" will vary greatly and although it may vaporize the end of the wire, it may not be enough actual current to trip the breaker (unless it was GFCI or AFCI).

 

[markebenson]

I'm not going to defend FPE breakers, but I think this needs to be said.

Purposely grounding a circuit to test a breaker's functionality is not only an invalid test, it's extremely dangerous! :slaphead:

I'll be that if you take any given breaker and do that, some will trip, some will not. The amount of resistance to ground that takes place in your "touch test" will vary greatly and although it may vaporize the end of the wire, it may not be enough actual current to trip the breaker (unless it was GFCI or AFCI).

It may not be the official method of testing and I am not recommending to do this as normal practice but I would rather know now if a shorted appliance is going to burn this building down. I cannot think of a reason that any functional 20 a circuit breaker would not trip when shorted directly to ground.

 

[markebenson]

Replace them with UBI breakers. You can buy them at HD.

They are ETL listed devices. Connecticut Electric, look at "Overview."

Thank you for the idea!

I believe this is the best option for a customer that is unwilling to have a panel change. At minimum I can require the double pole breakers be changed if I accept work with this type panel.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Thank you for the idea!

I believe this is the best option for a customer that is unwilling to have a panel change. At minimum I can require the double pole breakers be changed if I accept work with this type panel.

everyone has their own comfort level.

i'm comfortable replacing problematic equipment.

otherwise, i will leave it be, and the person can get
someone else to do what they want done. i won't
charge for showing up, and finding out the customer
isn't a customer after all.

they are someone else's customer.

yeah, you can replace breakers with home desperate
etl approved breakers, or.... you can replace the panel,
or.... you can walk away. three options.

 

[drcampbell]

... I cannot think of a reason that any functional 20 a circuit breaker would not trip when shorted directly to ground.

Possible reasons:
- Not enough I²T (current² & time)
There's a difference between a bolted fault and waving a pigtail around. An arc will form, which will have a higher impedance than intimate metal-to-metal contact. A magnetic field will form, which will tend to open the "connection" between the end of the pigtail and the ground. The contact point may be contaminated with paint, rust or other debris. The connection between the white wire and the box may be marginal. (remember, current must return to its source, not necessarily to the "ground")
- Too much current
In the past, breakers were designed to interrupt lesser fault currents, often 5 kA. If the neighborhood distribution has been upgraded, there might be more fault current available than the breaker was ever expected to handle and the contacts might weld closed before the mechanism has a chance to act. (especially if the contact resistance is higher than expected, or the mechanism is slower than expected, due to contamination or weak spring tension)

To be clear: I do NOT advocate repeating this experiment, let alone conducting a "better" experiment with a bolted fault.

 

[electricguy61]

Here are just two of many articles concerning FPE safety:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...gation-Finds-Decades-of-Danger-171406921.html

https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-...nd-Provides-Safety-Information-For-Consumers/

Thanks Augie47! I will keep them for future inspections/quotes.

Though usually I just suggest the homeowner do their own research, lest they feel I'm just trying to sell them a service change. But the nbcbayarea report was excellent.

One other issue for the OP: the act of flipping on an FPE breaker can pull them away from the busbar. This is especially problematic with the FPE thin breakers, where only two small fingers are pushed into a busbar hole. If the panel cover isn't tight against the breaker, you can pull it lose just by turning it on. For most other breakers, turning on the breaker pushes the contacts onto the busbar. Often these panels (in California) are on the same garage wall as the garage entrance from the home. I've seen numerous instances of circuits going on and off from the door being shut.

My advice: Replace the panel or refuse to work on it.

 

[JFletcher]

Possible reasons:
- Not enough I²T (current² & time)
There's a difference between a bolted fault and waving a pigtail around. An arc will form, which will have a higher impedance than intimate metal-to-metal contact. A magnetic field will form, which will tend to open the "connection" between the end of the pigtail and the ground. The contact point may be contaminated with paint, rust or other debris. The connection between the white wire and the box may be marginal. (remember, current must return to its source, not necessarily to the "ground")
- Too much current
In the past, breakers were designed to interrupt lesser fault currents, often 5 kA. If the neighborhood distribution has been upgraded, there might be more fault current available than the breaker was ever expected to handle and the contacts might weld closed before the mechanism has a chance to act. (especially if the contact resistance is higher than expected, or the mechanism is slower than expected, due to contamination or weak spring tension)

To be clear: I do NOT advocate repeating this experiment, let alone conducting a "better" experiment with a bolted fault.

Seen 22kAIC breakers (single pole 20A) hold under fault until the wire exploded... shouldnt the instantaneous trip rating of a breaker be lower than the point in which the circuit wiring becomes a fuse? I thought the AIC rating was to keep the breaker from exploding under fault.

 

[rt66electric]

I have found...

I have found...

That the size of the Kaboom Decreases the futher away from the panel ......... a long lenght of wire will Choke the amount of current (Kaboom capability)
I most current that I have seen on a 12 ga wire was approx 90amps( inrush of two motors starrting at the same time), It held for approx 2 mins before tripping a cold G.E. 20 amp snap-in.

When ever I see 60+ amps on a 20 amp breaker, I will go look for a locked up motor/rotor, or, it is a Dead short wire that has "welded" itself to ground


I was working with another sparky whom shorted out a wire while we working, and without looking I bet him lunch that it was a square D QO panel judging just from the "Little amount of Spark" ( more of a 'click' than a' kapow") from the fault.... Boy that cheesburger tasted good.

 

[jaggedben]

I'm curious what evidence people can point to regarding the UBI breakers. Good, better, or not better all?

 

[Jraef]

Seen 22kAIC breakers (single pole 20A) hold under fault until the wire exploded... shouldnt the instantaneous trip rating of a breaker be lower than the point in which the circuit wiring becomes a fuse? I thought the AIC rating was to keep the breaker from exploding under fault.

The Interrupting Current (IC) rating has nothing whatsoever to do with trip time, it's strictly the point at which, mechanically, the breaker comes to pieces from the magnetic forces involved.

Typical instantaneous trip setting is 10X the breaker rating, but there is no universal rule, I've seen some resi breakers that are as low as 4X. So on a 20A breaker that is between 80A and 200A current before it trips. Even then, there is a fairly wide tolerance band for the trip times plus there is the actual clearing time, the time it takes for the contacts to open far enough to stop the current from flowing. But to your point, yes, the trip curve is SUPPOSED to be lower than the damage curve of the conductors it's meant to protect, but that's thermally. Once you are acting in the instantaneous range, all bets are off. So yes, I too have had some large conductors vaporize on me AS the breaker was tripping on instantaneous. It's not fun...

 

[jim dungar]

I thought the AIC rating was to keep the breaker from exploding under fault.

It is.
For the commonly used 10k and 22k devices the AIC rating has nothing to do with the 'tripping' of the device.

I don't think there has been any significant advances in miniature molded case breakers in more than 50 years. I doubt they are as inherently unsafe as many anecdotal tales make them out to be.

 

[GoldDigger]

The only thing it has to do with tripping is that it must be able to trip under that current without blowing up or failing closed. It must be able to safely interrupt (the I in AIC) that current.

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