FIRE! Red FPE Breakers please help!

[zog]

I hope this is not too far off subject but will chance it. I do not condone this procedure for breaker trip testing since I come from a long line of breaker testing using the low voltage-high current testing procedures, but experienced this about 14 yrs ago.
While I was doing start-up testing on the AirTrain people mover project at SFO airport I was shocked (pardon pun) to hear of the procedure that Bombardier Transportation (formally Westinghouse Transportation) was required to use to test the trip units of the Eaton DS air frame CB in the 5 double-ended substations. I think the breaker frame sizes were in the 800A range. They would clamp copper shunts (dead shorts) using vice-grip pliers across the 600V conductor rail segments that the cars were powered from. Then on a remote command from central control wound send a close command to the breaker ...and....BOOM!!! the breaker would trip!!!! We would stand behind a transformer (chicken, I guess!) to witness to operation and record the results. Yeah, never heard of this before but it was a real world way of verifying the trip unit, cable and bus connections of each circuit during a real fault condition. The breaker contacts were inspected afterwards but did not find any problems since they are designed for this.
Has anyone ever experienced this type of testing?

Yes, I have witnessed many HEFA tests at power labs of large air frame breakers. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[zog]

This article does not mention the Seller's id or that they were "Top rated seller". do you know the sellers id? It is highly unlikely this breaker would be purchased in any type of quantity by anyone but an electrician that knows what they are for. Ebay is very stringent on the qualifications for the top rated seller ie feedback, returns, etc. I find it difficult to believe that a number of qualified electricians purchased these things on ebay and did not return them, file complaints, etc. Nobody else would have a need for them.

They seized 100,000 fake breakers, who else do you think was buying them?

ID is electrical_parts

 

[ATSman]

Yes, I have witnessed many HEFA tests at power labs of large air frame breakers. Pretty cool stuff.

Ok, cool!

But I was referring to field testing.

 

[GoldDigger]

home desperate? I am not familiar with that supplier.

Its initials are HD and they favor orange.
A joking nickname, similar to Harbor Fright.

 

[markebenson]

Its initials are HD and they favor orange.
A joking nickname, similar to Harbor Fright.

I like HD but probly because I get a 10% discount when I buy.
HaHa we all have our favorite supliers


The product is the important thing. In General I am Square d for life. How about U?

 

[markebenson]

Thanks Augie47! I will keep them for future inspections/quotes.

Though usually I just suggest the homeowner do their own research, lest they feel I'm just trying to sell them a service change. But the nbcbayarea report was excellent.

One other issue for the OP: the act of flipping on an FPE breaker can pull them away from the busbar. This is especially problematic with the FPE thin breakers, where only two small fingers are pushed into a busbar hole. If the panel cover isn't tight against the breaker, you can pull it lose just by turning it on. For most other breakers, turning on the breaker pushes the contacts onto the busbar. Often these panels (in California) are on the same garage wall as the garage entrance from the home. I've seen numerous instances of circuits going on and off from the door being shut.

My advice: Replace the panel or refuse to work on it.

.
This being said, I want to point out that the THIN breakers are the worst for this and I will demand change of those if I chose to work on the panel. The thin ones must go immediately. Re: the job I am currently dealing with, I took all those out and replaced with UBI retrofits. They snap in very tight. I am pleased with this solution if you have to deal with the panel. Sure I can refuse to work on it but if the ole lady that owns the house that has a limited income died in I fire? I want to say that I did all I could to prevent that from happening. And I am very happy with the UBI breaker in this situation



.

 

[kwired]

.
This being said, I want to point out that the THIN breakers are the worst for this and I will demand change of those if I chose to work on the panel. The thin ones must go immediately. Re: the job I am currently dealing with, I took all those out and replaced with UBI retrofits. They snap in very tight. I am pleased with this solution if you have to deal with the panel. Sure I can refuse to work on it but if the ole lady that owns the house that has a limited income died in I fire? I want to say that I did all I could to prevent that from happening. And I am very happy with the UBI breaker in this situation



. View attachment 16747

You spent maybe $3-400 in breakers, likely had to double some of the original circuits up, and left them with no more spaces for future use. All you saved them was the labor necessary to change out the panel, they already spent about what the materials cost on a new panel. Next time they need to add a circuit or if some of those that you doubled up need separated again, it isn't over yet, and they may end up having a new panel installed anyway.

 

[ptonsparky]

You spent maybe $3-400 in breakers, likely had to double some of the original circuits up, and left them with no more spaces for future use. All you saved them was the labor necessary to change out the panel, they already spent about what the materials cost on a new panel. Next time they need to add a circuit or if some of those that you doubled up need separated again, it isn't over yet, and they may end up having a new panel installed anyway.

I agree with you but sometimes the money just isn't there.

I would have thought there would be at least two kitchen circuits even back when. Most every thing else could be doubled up and no one notice.

 

[kwired]

I agree with you but sometimes the money just isn't there.

I would have thought there would be at least two kitchen circuits even back when. Most every thing else could be doubled up and no one notice.

Money usually isn't there to replace all the breakers either. If you tell them the situation though they may start saving up to change the panel instead of filling it with expensive breakers they eventually will get rid of when they do change the panel.

 

[Jraef]

I hope this is not too far off subject but will chance it. I do not condone this procedure for breaker trip testing since I come from a long line of breaker testing using the low voltage-high current testing procedures, but experienced this about 14 yrs ago.
While I was doing start-up testing on the AirTrain people mover project at SFO airport I was shocked (pardon pun) to hear of the procedure that Bombardier Transportation (formally Westinghouse Transportation) was required to use to test the trip units of the Eaton DS air frame CB in the 5 double-ended substations. I think the breaker frame sizes were in the 800A range. They would clamp copper shunts (dead shorts) using vice-grip pliers across the 600V conductor rail segments that the cars were powered from. Then on a remote command from central control wound send a close command to the breaker ...and....BOOM!!! the breaker would trip!!!! We would stand behind a transformer (chicken, I guess!) to witness to operation and record the results. Yeah, never heard of this before but it was a real world way of verifying the trip unit, cable and bus connections of each circuit during a real fault condition. The breaker contacts were inspected afterwards but did not find any problems since they are designed for this.
Has anyone ever experienced this type of testing?

That's essentially part of what an equipment listing test is. I've witnessed a few, it's spectacularly fun (for electrical geeks). So in one case we were testing a 600A 4160V soft starter to get UL listing. There were a lot of tests, but the FINAL one was the withstand test and was essentially what you described, resulting in a pool of molten copper and aluminum at the bottom of the test stand (we removed the fuses). I have a video of it somewhere, including the dripping molten metal. I should dig that up and post it to youtube. I'd have to somehow scrub the mfr name from everything though, I no longer work for them so I don't really have permission...

 

[JFletcher]

That's essentially part of what an equipment listing test is. I've witnessed a few, it's spectacularly fun (for electrical geeks). So in one case we were testing a 600A 4160V soft starter to get UL listing. There were a lot of tests, but the FINAL one was the withstand test and was essentially what you described, resulting in a pool of molten copper and aluminum at the bottom of the test stand (we removed the fuses). I have a video of it somewhere, including the dripping molten metal. I should dig that up and post it to youtube. I'd have to somehow scrub the mfr name from everything though, I no longer work for them so I don't really have permission...

I'd like to see that!

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The UBI replacements are okay but I dont think I'd install 11 of them into an old FPE box. You can get a 100A sq-d MCB 20/40 panel with main, including a few 20A 1p and a double 30 for ~$60, and 15A 1p for $4 a piece. That's a $100 in materials for this job vs ~$330, and there's an hour/service call to swap breakers. $450 either way, the new panel is expandable and a better product. and more money in my pocket than UBI's.

 

[markebenson]

You spent maybe $3-400 in breakers, likely had to double some of the original circuits up, and left them with no more spaces for future use. All you saved them was the labor necessary to change out the panel, they already spent about what the materials cost on a new panel. Next time they need to add a circuit or if some of those that you doubled up need separated again, it isn't over yet, and they may end up having a new panel installed anyway.

Nobody will be adding circuits to this fpe panel, that was my intention. I spent about $100, I got them surplus, otherwise I wouldn't have done it. It will trip breakers now when overloaded like it should instead of burn up the bussbar. New panel is on the agenda for the summer but the client wants to wait. The meter is 100 ft away with no main so panel change is much more money.

 

[markebenson]

I'd like to see that!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The UBI replacements are okay but I dont think I'd install 11 of them into an old FPE box. You can get a 100A sq-d MCB 20/40 panel with main, including a few 20A 1p and a double 30 for ~$60, and 15A 1p for $4 a piece. That's a $100 in materials for this job vs ~$330, and there's an hour/service call to swap breakers. $450 either way, the new panel is expandable and a better product. and more money in my pocket than UBI's.

You are right but I got them surplus for about $100. I want to change the panel but this meter is 100ft away. Not in clients budget at this time. Said they will do that this summer.

 

[JFletcher]

You are right but I got them surplus for about $100. I want to change the panel but this meter is 100ft away. Not in clients budget at this time. Said they will do that this summer.

Gotcha, tho what does the meter being 100' away have to do with it? Are you going to upgrade the service or just change the panel for a newer 100A?

 

[George Stolz]

The house hasn't burned down for 30 years, but $100 plus labor just got invested into a garbage panel. I'm not a gambling man, but I would bet $5 that come summertime they forget to call. Such is the way of the world.

 

[markebenson]

Gotcha, tho what does the meter being 100' away have to do with it? Are you going to upgrade the service or just change the panel for a newer 100A?

Oh sorry.

There is no main outside and there is 3 wires feeding the panel. The job will require a main outside and a new feed to the panel at 100'. The client agreed to do a 100 amp replace this summer per my quote. I will certainly offer a 150-200a upgrade as an option when the time comes but at least I got a commitment.

 

[markebenson]

The house hasn't burned down for 30 years, but $100 plus labor just got invested into a garbage panel. I'm not a gambling man, but I would bet $5 that come summertime they forget to call. Such is the way of the world.

I understand your point and this is true in many situations and thank you for putting that out there but I am working in a
"good ole boy" town on this job if that makes sense to you?

 

[kwired]

I understand your point and this is true in many situations and thank you for putting that out there but I am working in a
"good ole boy" town on this job if that makes sense to you?

In a "good ole boy" town you would be accused of taking advantage of them when you sold them something unnecessary. Codes don't matter in those towns neither does your CYA approach for liability reasons, but they will sue you anyway if the house burns down and it can be determined it started because of the panel and you were the last professional in it.:roll:

 

[markebenson]

In a "good ole boy" town you would be accused of taking advantage of them when you sold them something unnecessary. Codes don't matter in those towns neither does your CYA approach for liability reasons, but they will sue you anyway if the house burns down and it can be determined it started because of the panel and you were the last professional in it.:roll:

Not in this situation. Code enforcement is run by good ole boys and pretty much the whole city hall.
Its different.

 

[kwired]

Not in this situation. Code enforcement is run by good ole boys and pretty much the whole city hall.
Its different.

If you live in that town, you are one of the good ole boys they are trying to protect. If you are an outsider, you don't have a chance, if you just moved there, you are a little higher on the ladder but need a few years before you can ascend.