FIRE! Red FPE Breakers please help!

[kwired]

Even if an aftermarket breaker for the application is better then the original - look at the price.

If you are considering replacing quite a few breakers - it may cost less to just replace the entire panel with something currently in production.

Single pole FPE replacement maybe $25-30. Single pole Homeline breaker - maybe $3.50

Panel in the open in a garage or basement might not be too difficult to replace.

Panel flush in a wall - you have to think a little harder on what it will cost to replace - but may still be worth it in the end.

 

[markebenson]

Even if an aftermarket breaker for the application is better then the original - look at the price.

If you are considering replacing quite a few breakers - it may cost less to just replace the entire panel with something currently in production.

Single pole FPE replacement maybe $25-30. Single pole Homeline breaker - maybe $3.50

Panel in the open in a garage or basement might not be too difficult to replace.

Panel flush in a wall - you have to think a little harder on what it will cost to replace - but may still be worth it in the end.

Agreed and the job I am working right now we will be replacing the panel this summer. I do however want it to be safe as reasonably possible until I return. As mentioned a nicked wire blew in half. This is not normal! I found a couple dozen new UBI breakers per earlier suggestion. I found them for $8 ea on Ebay. They are 15a I am connecting to existing 12awg but this is better given the situation. Some would say its not my problem to do this but if ever a fire happens, it's not going to be because I didn't do my best with the situation I was given.

 

[iwire]

As mentioned a nicked wire blew in half. This is not normal!

Impossible to say if that was 'normal' it has as much to do with the breaker as it has to do with circuit impedance and how the conductor was touching the grounded object.

 

[Coppersmith]

I found a couple dozen new UBI breakers per earlier suggestion. I found them for $8 ea on Ebay.

Yikes! You never quite know what your getting when you buy something on Ebay. These could be counterfeits. (Perfect counterfeiting situation: something that sells for a lot of money ($32 at HD) and is cheap to make (a few plastic parts and a piece of wire.)) You already have a bad situation with an FPE panel. Sounds like you might be making it worse with knock-off breakers.

I replace lots of these panels and would never suggest to anyone that they just change the breakers. The panel design is just as bad as the breaker design. If they insisted, I would tell them to get another electrician. The liability is just too much. Plus replacing all the breakers in a typical panel would be about the same cost or more then replacing the entire panel.

 

[kwired]

Agreed and the job I am working right now we will be replacing the panel this summer. I do however want it to be safe as reasonably possible until I return. As mentioned a nicked wire blew in half. This is not normal! I found a couple dozen new UBI breakers per earlier suggestion. I found them for $8 ea on Ebay. They are 15a I am connecting to existing 12awg but this is better given the situation. Some would say its not my problem to do this but if ever a fire happens, it's not going to be because I didn't do my best with the situation I was given.

Why not just change the panel now? Even if other upcoming work would mean you need a temporary feeder to it or something of that nature. $8.00 a breaker, I'd still prefer the cheapest GE or Siemens panel as a temporary solution - even if I planned to throw it away later in the project.

 

[markebenson]

Yikes! You never quite know what your getting when you buy something on Ebay. These could be counterfeits. (Perfect counterfeiting situation: something that sells for a lot of money ($32 at HD) and is cheap to make (a few plastic parts and a piece of wire.)) You already have a bad situation with an FPE panel. Sounds like you might be making it worse with knock-off breakers.

I replace lots of these panels and would never suggest to anyone that they just change the breakers. The panel design is just as bad as the breaker design. If they insisted, I would tell them to get another electrician. The liability is just too much. Plus replacing all the breakers in a typical panel would be about the same cost or more then replacing the entire panel.

My friend, I have 25 years experience in the field. The likely hood of getting a counterfeit breaker that is a highly unpopular model with original packaging and confirmed barcode from a top rated Ebay seller is about 0.

 

[markebenson]

Impossible to say if that was 'normal' it has as much to do with the breaker as it has to do with circuit impedance and how the conductor was touching the grounded object.

What calculation method are you using to determine this instance could have any normality whatsoever? The wire blew in half from a nick shorted against a j box connected with 12awg ground wire and grounding scew about 10 feet from panel.

 

[GoldDigger]

What calculation method are you using to determine this instance could have any normality whatsoever? The wire blew in half from a nick shorted against a j box connected with 12awg ground wire and grounding scew about 10 feet from panel.

It should not be too hard to determine the minimum voltage needed to vaporize that diameter copper wire through conducted current only, and compare that to the nominal trip curve of the breaker.
But it is harder to determine how much current would be necessary to burn through the wire from an arc, which could cause far more localized heating in the wire that pure resistive heating.

I, for one, would not be willing to state categorically that the breaker "failed" without more computation that I do not feel qualified to do.

 

[zog]

My friend, I have 25 years experience in the field. The likely hood of getting a counterfeit breaker that is a highly unpopular model with original packaging and confirmed barcode from a top rated Ebay seller is about 0.

Oh really? Already happened with these breakers, on Ebay, from a top rated seller.

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/texas-business-owner-sentenced-counterfeit-circuit-breaker-scheme

 

[iwire]

What calculation method are you using to determine this instance could have any normality whatsoever? The wire blew in half from a nick shorted against a j box connected with 12awg ground wire and grounding scew about 10 feet from panel.

What calculation method are you using to determine this instance could have any abnormality whatsoever?

Just because there is arcing contact between a hot conductor and grounded object does not mean the current will be sufficient to trip the breaker.

The arc itself adds impedance and if the wire melts before the object it is hitting melts you can get an open conductor.

 

[ATSman]

Breaker Testing

Breaker Testing

I'm not going to defend FPE breakers, but I think this needs to be said.

Purposely grounding a circuit to test a breaker's functionality is not only an invalid test, it's extremely dangerous! :slaphead:

I'll be that if you take any given breaker and do that, some will trip, some will not. The amount of resistance to ground that takes place in your "touch test" will vary greatly and although it may vaporize the end of the wire, it may not be enough actual current to trip the breaker (unless it was GFCI or AFCI).

I hope this is not too far off subject but will chance it. I do not condone this procedure for breaker trip testing since I come from a long line of breaker testing using the low voltage-high current testing procedures, but experienced this about 14 yrs ago.
While I was doing start-up testing on the AirTrain people mover project at SFO airport I was shocked (pardon pun) to hear of the procedure that Bombardier Transportation (formally Westinghouse Transportation) was required to use to test the trip units of the Eaton DS air frame CB in the 5 double-ended substations. I think the breaker frame sizes were in the 800A range. They would clamp copper shunts (dead shorts) using vice-grip pliers across the 600V conductor rail segments that the cars were powered from. Then on a remote command from central control wound send a close command to the breaker ...and....BOOM!!! the breaker would trip!!!! We would stand behind a transformer (chicken, I guess!) to witness to operation and record the results. Yeah, never heard of this before but it was a real world way of verifying the trip unit, cable and bus connections of each circuit during a real fault condition. The breaker contacts were inspected afterwards but did not find any problems since they are designed for this.
Has anyone ever experienced this type of testing?

 

[ptonsparky]

I hope this is not too far off subject but will chance it. I do not condone this procedure for breaker trip testing since I come from a long line of breaker testing using the low voltage-high current testing procedures, but experienced this about 14 yrs ago.
While I was doing start-up testing on the AirTrain people mover project at SFO airport I was shocked (pardon pun) to hear of the procedure that Bombardier Transportation (formally Westinghouse Transportation) was required to use to test the trip units of the Eaton DS air frame CB in the 5 double-ended substations. I think the breaker frame sizes were in the 800A range. They would clamp copper shunts (dead shorts) using vice-grip pliers across the 600V conductor rail segments that the cars were powered from. Then on a remote command from central control wound send a close command to the breaker ...and....BOOM!!! the breaker would trip!!!! We would stand behind a transformer (chicken, I guess!) to witness to operation and record the results. Yeah, never heard of this before but it was a real world way of verifying the trip unit, cable and bus connections of each circuit during a real fault condition. The breaker contacts were inspected afterwards but did not find any problems since they are designed for this.
Has anyone ever experienced this type of testing?

. Only by accident, only a 200, and it was a set of 12s under a scotch lock that shut down that portion of Rockwell mfg, valve division. The guilty apprentice, not me, had questions later that morning.

 

[GoldDigger]

I suspect that the manufacturer of the breakers would not be too happy with that process.
If the current approaches the AIC of the breakers, AFAIK there is a strictly limited number of such events they are required to withstand and still operate properly

 

[ATSman]

I suspect that the manufacturer of the breakers would not be too happy with that process.
If the current approaches the AIC of the breakers, AFAIK there is a strictly limited number of such events they are required to withstand and still operate properly

What is ironic is the original company (Westinghouse/ then Cutler-Hammer/ then Eaton) designed these breakers (look up the history) and hence this was part of the original test procedures from the Westinghouse Transportation division.

 

[markebenson]

Oh really? Already happened with these breakers, on Ebay, from a top rated seller.

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/texas-business-owner-sentenced-counterfeit-circuit-breaker-scheme

This article does not mention the Seller's id or that they were "Top rated seller". do you know the sellers id? It is highly unlikely this breaker would be purchased in any type of quantity by anyone but an electrician that knows what they are for. Ebay is very stringent on the qualifications for the top rated seller ie feedback, returns, etc. I find it difficult to believe that a number of qualified electricians purchased these things on ebay and did not return them, file complaints, etc. Nobody else would have a need for them.

 

[markebenson]

I suspect that the manufacturer of the breakers would not be too happy with that process.
If the current approaches the AIC of the breakers, AFAIK there is a strictly limited number of such events they are required to withstand and still operate properly

Ok but the AFAIK should allow for (1) of this event type right?

 

[ActionDave]

Ok but the AFAIK should allow for (1) of this event type right?

What are you selling?

 

[markebenson]

Why not just change the panel now? Even if other upcoming work would mean you need a temporary feeder to it or something of that nature. $8.00 a breaker, I'd still prefer the cheapest GE or Siemens panel as a temporary solution - even if I planned to throw it away later in the project.

The landlord here does not see this as terribly important because the power is not disrupted. Obviously unfortunate. I am not happy with waiting. I am glad to get a committment at all from the landlord. I only got that because the Property manager who understands is making them to do it in a specified agreement. All parties have been sent notice of the danger. Wish I could do a temp solution but cant do it without someone signing off on it. I am doing the best I have to work with.

 

[markebenson]

everyone has their own comfort level.

i'm comfortable replacing problematic equipment.

otherwise, i will leave it be, and the person can get
someone else to do what they want done. i won't
charge for showing up, and finding out the customer
isn't a customer after all.

they are someone else's customer.

yeah, you can replace breakers with home desperate
etl approved breakers, or.... you can replace the panel,
or.... you can walk away. three options.

home desperate? I am not familiar with that supplier.

 

[ptonsparky]

The landlord here does not see this as terribly important because the power is not disrupted. Obviously unfortunate. I am not happy with waiting. I am glad to get a committment at all from the landlord. I only got that because the Property manager who understands is making them to do it in a specified agreement. All parties have been sent notice of the danger. Wish I could do a temp solution but cant do it without someone signing off on it. I am doing the best I have to work with.

Your rear is covered. You have made them aware and they acknowledge the problem with a tentative future repair. Not much more you can do.

FWIW, low, to good to be true, pricing makes me pretty nervous wherever I encounter it.