FIRE! Red FPE Breakers please help!

[tortuga]

For what its worth Schneider Electric the parent company of Square D continues to make Federal Pioneer Stab-Lok breakers in Canada.
The UL listing seems to have been performed in the US. The inspectapedia has a page about them having a small recall, however other brands have had this happen too.
If you set aside concerns about flaws in the panel buss bar design and just need to add an AFCI or GFCI in an old house these breakers are a good option as the breakers basically are made by Square D.
And as far as I know connecticut-electric / UBI is limited to making the breakers as they where in 1980 where as
Square D is able to introduce newer technology like AFCI's.
I imagine its only patent licensing reasons or even just wanting to avoid bad PR that Square D can not sell them in the US.
I would ask an inspector before using them and give them a copy of the UL listing:
Link to UL listing
I am able to obtain these breakers from Canada (any HD) and never had a problem.

 

[kwired]

For what its worth Schneider Electric the parent company of Square D continues to make Federal Pioneer Stab-Lok breakers in Canada.
The UL listing seems to have been performed in the US. The inspectapedia has a page about them having a small recall, however other brands have had this happen too.
If you set aside concerns about flaws in the panel buss bar design and just need to add an AFCI or GFCI in an old house these breakers are a good option as the breakers basically are made by Square D.
And as far as I know connecticut-electric / UBI is limited to making the breakers as they where in 1980 where as
Square D is able to introduce newer technology like AFCI's.
I imagine its only patent licensing reasons or even just wanting to avoid bad PR that Square D can not sell them in the US.
I would ask an inspector before using them and give them a copy of the UL listing:
Link to UL listing
I am able to obtain these breakers from Canada (any HD) and never had a problem.

Read the comments on the HD link you provided. Those are not combination type AFCI's (that detect both series and parallel arcing faults).

 

[SteamDonkey]

Do type NBLP panels with Type NB breakers have an unusually high risk of failure as well? I'm trying to evaluate several 70's vintage FPE panels (through photos) and nowhere is "Stab-Lok" visible and none of the breakers have the red/orange color on the end of the handle. All the documentation I've been able to find regarding FPE panel failures seems to be specific to Stab-lok products.

Moving up to larger equipment, does anyone know if 70's vintage FPE switchboards are problematic as well? This facility has a 1600A, 4 section type FDP-BDP switchboard.

Thanks.

 

[gadfly56]

Do type NBLP panels with Type NB breakers have an unusually high risk of failure as well? I'm trying to evaluate several 70's vintage FPE panels (through photos) and nowhere is "Stab-Lok" visible and none of the breakers have the red/orange color on the end of the handle. All the documentation I've been able to find regarding FPE panel failures seems to be specific to Stab-lok products.

Moving up to larger equipment, does anyone know if 70's vintage FPE switchboards are problematic as well? This facility has a 1600A, 4 section type FDP-BDP switchboard.

Thanks.

IIRC, in another thread on FPE someone had dug around and there were no reports of their switchboards being an issue.

 

[Khecksher]

In a "good ole boy" town you would be accused of taking advantage of them when you sold them something unnecessary. Codes don't matter in those towns neither does your CYA approach for liability reasons, but they will sue you anyway if the house burns down and it can be determined it started because of the panel and you were the last professional in it.:roll:

Ok, I don't post very often, but I will have to add in my 2 cents about liability in fire cases. All of the insurance companies will investigate fires, they will send out either a local investigator, or one of the four major investigation groups they have on contract for the area. In my profession as an Forensic Electrical Consultant, I defend a lot of electrical product manufacturers in fire cases. When we see a recent "Licensed Contractor or Contractor" perform electrical alterations, modifications, or repairs, we immediately ask what they were doing, why, and exactly what they did, what products were replaced (either new, surplus or used), and exactly what codes/laws comply to that said work. Then we immediately demand that the electrical contractor be brought into the investigation (as they may have culpability in the case), this has been known to cause fire investigations to be paused while the "Parties of interest" are brought in and allowed to have representation during an investigation. So that always brings up questions of code compliance in the local area, and if the repair was supposed to be brought up to code, or did it fall under grandfathering clauses? PLEASE, PLEASE remember why codes exist, and WHY they are changed, as they are put into place because it was proven that the old installation technique, or products caused either loss of LIFE or property. So always please make sure your repair, or replace meets with current local and state codes and compliance, because if your insurance company finds out you worked outside of the codes, they can (depending on your liability policy wording) make you or your company completely financially responsible for the loss that the plaintiffs have filed for. This is only my 2 cents, and does not constitute any legal advice, but trust me you don't won't to be on the wrong side of a wrongful death lawsuit. (sorry I had to add the disclaimer). This is never worth risking a customers life/property over for your financial gain or to "just get them by", plus you will sleep much better at night.

This is just my friendly reminder as an investigator, to PLEASE always update to current code requirements when required. I've seen too many cases that could have been easily avoided.

 

[Fulthrotl]

because if your insurance company finds out you worked outside of the codes, they can (depending on your liability policy wording) make you or your company completely financially responsible for the loss that the plaintiffs have filed for. This is only my 2 cents, and does not constitute any legal advice, but trust me you don't won't to be on the wrong side of a wrongful death lawsuit.

back on page two or so, i mentioned walking away
from something, from a self preservation point of view.

the OP went on for several pages, finally posting his
solution, and defending it. fine with me.

i've been involved with one grand jury wrongful death
investigation. that was sufficient.

then i, and a dozen other folks got sued for $2.5 M each,
in the civil portion of the process. subrogation sucks.

and all i was, was the guy who walked away, refusing to
touch the existing wiring of the house and pool. the property
owner fixed it himself, and then when the college girl was
electrocuted in the pool, he told the police i was his electrician,
and i said everything was fine.

i ended up giving expert testimony three separate occasions
in front of the grand jury. they filed an indictment on the
property owner. he went to prison.

i hope that $100 repair job the OP did holds up well. it's his ass.

 

[kwired]

back on page two or so, i mentioned walking away
from something, from a self preservation point of view.

the OP went on for several pages, finally posting his
solution, and defending it. fine with me.

i've been involved with one grand jury wrongful death
investigation. that was sufficient.

then i, and a dozen other folks got sued for $2.5 M each,
in the civil portion of the process. subrogation sucks.

and all i was, was the guy who walked away, refusing to
touch the existing wiring of the house and pool. the property
owner fixed it himself, and then when the college girl was
electrocuted in the pool, he told the police i was his electrician,
and i said everything was fine.

i ended up giving expert testimony three separate occasions
in front of the grand jury. they filed an indictment on the
property owner. he went to prison.

i hope that $100 repair job the OP did holds up well. it's his ass.

That's just it in this age, you can try to do the right thing and still be target of a lawsuit. Every decision you make is a risk, all you can do is try to do what you believe is right, but be prepared to defend yourself at any time.

 

[jaggedben]

Ok, I don't post very often, but I will have to add in my 2 cents about liability in fire cases. All of the insurance companies will investigate fires, they will send out either a local investigator, or one of the four major investigation groups they have on contract for the area. In my profession as an Forensic Electrical Consultant, I defend a lot of electrical product manufacturers in fire cases. When we see a recent "Licensed Contractor or Contractor" perform electrical alterations, modifications, or repairs, we immediately ask what they were doing, why, and exactly what they did, what products were replaced (either new, surplus or used), and exactly what codes/laws comply to that said work. Then we immediately demand that the electrical contractor be brought into the investigation (as they may have culpability in the case), this has been known to cause fire investigations to be paused while the "Parties of interest" are brought in and allowed to have representation during an investigation. So that always brings up questions of code compliance in the local area, and if the repair was supposed to be brought up to code, or did it fall under grandfathering clauses? PLEASE, PLEASE remember why codes exist, and WHY they are changed, as they are put into place because it was proven that the old installation technique, or products caused either loss of LIFE or property. So always please make sure your repair, or replace meets with current local and state codes and compliance, because if your insurance company finds out you worked outside of the codes, they can (depending on your liability policy wording) make you or your company completely financially responsible for the loss that the plaintiffs have filed for. This is only my 2 cents, and does not constitute any legal advice, but trust me you don't won't to be on the wrong side of a wrongful death lawsuit. (sorry I had to add the disclaimer). This is never worth risking a customers life/property over for your financial gain or to "just get them by", plus you will sleep much better at night.

This is just my friendly reminder as an investigator, to PLEASE always update to current code requirements when required. I've seen too many cases that could have been easily avoided.

So I highlighted all the times you said 'code', except that I'm not aware of any building code language that relates to either restrictions on the use of 'obsolete' equipment, or the grandfathering thereof. I don't think this is a matter of 'code compliance.' Code says zilch about it, as far as I know. Liability when dealing with FPE or Zinsco, such as it may be, would be a matter of 'not following trade standards' or 'negligence' or some other legal standard that someone could be accused under. I could be all kinds of code compliant but I'm sure if I was the last one there before something goes wrong then I could be accused of ... somehow being at fault. I use my judgement when dealing with this stuff. Can I do the work without disturbing existing obsolete equipment? If so, I may do it. I inform customers so that I can say later that they made the decision (not me) to leave something as is. I explain how my doing the work doesn't affect the existing hazard. I've seen other companies where the lawyers obviously set the policy and it was the most conservative 'we won't even look at it' kind of policy. I saw a lot of money wasted, in my opinion, replacing equipment that didn't need to be touched to be code compliant while completing the job. And yet, I know better than to think I'm covered by appealing to what the 'code' says. God help me if I would ever have to justify all my decisions in court.

 

[romex jockey]

back on page two or so, i mentioned walking away
from something, from a self preservation point of view.

the OP went on for several pages, finally posting his
solution, and defending it. fine with me.

i've been involved with one grand jury wrongful death
investigation. that was sufficient.

then i, and a dozen other folks got sued for $2.5 M each,
in the civil portion of the process. subrogation sucks.

and all i was, was the guy who walked away, refusing to
touch the existing wiring of the house and pool. the property
owner fixed it himself, and then when the college girl was
electrocuted in the pool, he told the police i was his electrician,
and i said everything was fine.

i ended up giving expert testimony three separate occasions
in front of the grand jury. they filed an indictment on the
property owner. he went to prison.

i hope that $100 repair job the OP did holds up well. it's his ass.

&%$#@ OUCH!

Every EC out there should read this.....

But it gets even better when you realize the cards are already stacked against you

Fed Pacific has a history , not a very pretty one considering the CSPC should have imparted a a total recall , if not class action suit via some entity to inspire such action

They didn't , and so now the world is proliferated with aging OCPD's of dubious efficacy

That we can't walk by....

Oddly enough, our lovely insurance cabal has taken the torch* up , having had one job in a multi-tenement insurance rep insisting 'all the red handled breaker must be replaced'

On investigation, they were 20A Challengers.....I did have the thought of just coloring them in with my sharpie, but talked my self into some black handled universals instead

Some days we eat the bear, some days.....


~RJ~

*posted wearing my Freudian slippers

 

[kwired]

Fuses very seldom fail to trip, yet are frowned upon by insurance companies.:huh:

 

[MAC702]

Fuses very seldom fail to trip, yet are frowned upon by insurance companies.:huh:

Shhhhh...

 

[SceneryDriver]

Fuses very seldom fail to trip, yet are frowned upon by insurance companies.:huh:

Probably because some muppet will over-fuse the circuit, or replace the fuse with a penny.

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/a9M9BGL_700b.jpg


SceneryDriver

 

[MAC702]

Probably because some muppet will over-fuse the circuit...

Why would you ever buy a 20A fuse when they make them in 30A?

 

[kwired]

Why would you ever buy a 20A fuse when they make them in 30A?

I have seen many single pole 30 amp breakers installed where there should have been a 15 or 20, though not nearly as often as you see 30 amp plug fuses used where a 15 or 20 should have been used.

Also seen 200 amp fused safety switch with door open and a fan blowing on it so fuses don't trip as often as without the fan.

 

[MAC702]

I have seen many single pole 30 amp breakers installed where there should have been a 15 or 20, though not nearly as often as you see 30 amp plug fuses used where a 15 or 20 should have been used...

Exactly.

The times I've seen a 30A single-pole breaker where a 20A should be is usually when someone "who knows what they are doing" put it on a receptacle serving a chop saw or something like that.

With fuses, it's because any HO can replace a fuse, and hey, the 30 fits!

 

[kwired]

Exactly.

The times I've seen a 30A single-pole breaker where a 20A should be is usually when someone "who knows what they are doing" put it on a receptacle serving a chop saw or something like that.

With fuses, it's because any HO can replace a fuse, and hey, the 30 fits!

I wouldn't quite say they know what they are doing, they are just brave enough to change out a breaker, the 30 amp breaker also fits, sometimes even a 40 or 50 amp breaker fits where the plug fuse only is made up to 30 amps:blink:

 

[sameguy]

I hope this is not too far off subject but will chance it. I do not condone this procedure for breaker trip testing since I come from a long line of breaker testing using the low voltage-high current testing procedures, but experienced this about 14 yrs ago.
While I was doing start-up testing on the AirTrain people mover project at SFO airport I was shocked (pardon pun) to hear of the procedure that Bombardier Transportation (formally Westinghouse Transportation) was required to use to test the trip units of the Eaton DS air frame CB in the 5 double-ended substations. I think the breaker frame sizes were in the 800A range. They would clamp copper shunts (dead shorts) using vice-grip pliers across the 600V conductor rail segments that the cars were powered from. Then on a remote command from central control wound send a close command to the breaker ...and....BOOM!!! the breaker would trip!!!! We would stand behind a transformer (chicken, I guess!) to witness to operation and record the results. Yeah, never heard of this before but it was a real world way of verifying the trip unit, cable and bus connections of each circuit during a real fault condition. The breaker contacts were inspected afterwards but did not find any problems since they are designed for this.
Has anyone ever experienced this type of testing?

I toured the Furnas motor control plant back in the 80's where they showed us the destructive testing area, only got to watch videos, pretty cool! Only thing is the light is blinding to the camera so you only see so much carnage. I'll bet testing vids can be found on the interwebs.

 

[norcal]

The UBI breakers are ChiCom sourced, good enough reason to avoid them, FPE Stab-Loc,breakers & Zinsco/Sylvania plug in breakers have a well deserved bad reputation, rather not use replacements for them from a country that has pretty lax standards.

 

[romex jockey]

Aren't all of them made in 3rd world sweatshops anyways?

~RJ~

 

[kwired]

Aren't all of them made in 3rd world sweatshops anyways?

~RJ~

QO circuit breakers are made in Lincoln, NE. I don't know where all the components are made but they are assembled in that plant. I do know the basic models are machine assembled. My college class got to tour that plant back in late 1980's. GFCI breakers were hand assembled at that time.

From what I can tell they are still going with QO products there.