I think this is good advice, although may be hard to implement in certain circumstances.
First year in business and just had my first digruntled customer
- Thread starter Mule
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jrannis
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Lauderdale/ Miami
Mule,
I know how it is to run into people like this. I can remember every single one. Sometimes I go over the situation in my head and try to find where I was at fault. The only thing I can figure out is that some people are just ignorant and wired differently and no matter what you do it will not change the situation.
It is really best to get everything in writing but, it seems like the one you miss or the one that you leave a little gray area on is the one that bites you.
fight the good fight, you can win the war without winning every battle.
Like the guy hanging on the cross said:
"forgive them, they don't know what they are doing"
I know how it is to run into people like this. I can remember every single one. Sometimes I go over the situation in my head and try to find where I was at fault. The only thing I can figure out is that some people are just ignorant and wired differently and no matter what you do it will not change the situation.
It is really best to get everything in writing but, it seems like the one you miss or the one that you leave a little gray area on is the one that bites you.
fight the good fight, you can win the war without winning every battle.
Like the guy hanging on the cross said:
"forgive them, they don't know what they are doing"
- Location
- Massachusetts
Very true and when you learn to let some things go you will sleep better.
Dnkldorf
Senior Member
Rewire
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake of the Ozarks
Some jobs just have to many unknowns and you have to go T&M. We had a saw mill that had a fire that destroyed the saw cab. The fire affected a large area and alot of equipment . It is impossible to look at a job this large and know what is and isn't going to need replaced a prime example is when we disconnected everytrhing and tryed to turn on the 1200 amp main it would not set and had to be replaced that part was 10 grand.
Dnkldorf
Senior Member
You ain't kidding. Try going in after someone started something and was canned.
How do you flat rate a price, without knowing who did what?
T&M till you figure it out, and then offer a competitive bid to fix and finish.
T&M is a very good tool to use sometimes.
IMOWM
jrannis
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Lauderdale/ Miami
Usually you factor these costs into your rates and do not charge the customer for them.
If you habitually go to the supply house in the middle every single job, then you are not really setup for service work and should re-evaluate your program.
If you have costs related to procurement, it will be there to absorb no matter if you are picking up materials at the end of the day or during a job.
I personally avoid T&M as much as possible.
PLEASE PLEASE....lets not get off on the differences in prices from MD NY and Oklahoma again. This is a worn out record
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
The differences in location have nothing to do with my post. The difference in your state of mind is what is making you think so.
charlietuna
Senior Member
I had to go to court on about six jobs in 25 years, and four of them were from customers you would least expect it, and that we went out of our way to satisfy and provide them good service! One guy was a tenant of mine who's business was in trouble and needed a special piece of equipment that required a service upgrade(to my building)! He didn't have the money for both the equipment and service change, and i told him he could pay me in six months and that i would donate the labor and would charge him for the materials only. When the judge asked him if this was correct he said "yes" ! And the judge asked him why he didn't pay me, he said "he didn't know"? Judge said "pay the man-in cash!" I lost a good friend the day i had to file for a court date!!
This lady doesn't sound like she knows a good deal from a bad one, and complains about every bill. I would have taken her to court and not worried about your reputation. Complaints coming from her to other people wouldn't go far due to the source!
There isn't anything wrong with T&M billing, it's just another method of payment within our trade. If there is a real trust between the contractor and the customer it works out for both parties. Those that complain about T&M apparently can't be trusted. And if you set your T&M markup and rates correctly you can make the same profit as contract work, and without as many headaches!!! I agree with the point brought up by jrannis about worrying about who pays for trips to the supply house! I see too many EC's with a basically, empty van and trying to do service work. The last job we did was a $385K print shop expansion -all T&M and started on a handshake! Customer was happy and so were we upon completion....
This lady doesn't sound like she knows a good deal from a bad one, and complains about every bill. I would have taken her to court and not worried about your reputation. Complaints coming from her to other people wouldn't go far due to the source!
There isn't anything wrong with T&M billing, it's just another method of payment within our trade. If there is a real trust between the contractor and the customer it works out for both parties. Those that complain about T&M apparently can't be trusted. And if you set your T&M markup and rates correctly you can make the same profit as contract work, and without as many headaches!!! I agree with the point brought up by jrannis about worrying about who pays for trips to the supply house! I see too many EC's with a basically, empty van and trying to do service work. The last job we did was a $385K print shop expansion -all T&M and started on a handshake! Customer was happy and so were we upon completion....
iaov
Senior Member
- Location
- Rhinelander WI
I'm a one man band and a lot of stuff I do is by word of mouth but if the price gets near a thousand dollars and especialy if it is a job that will take place over time I always put something in writing.It makes it easier for both parties to remember just what exactly was agreed to.
Having everthing in writing before you start the work benefits both parties.
People can misinterpret what was said and it can be more clear to them when they can see it in writing. Also it's easy for people to forget what was said.
Having it in writing is not just about trusting each other. It's a way to make sure what was said is not forgotten or misinterpeted by either party.
One time the company I was working for had a verbal agreement with a A/V company to install a sound system for some new offices being built. At the end of the project the sound system wasn't working so my boss had me check it out. There wasn't any equipment in the rack just the wiring sitting there ready to be connected to the equipment.
When I told my boss about it he told me to talk to the A/V guys and let them know they needed to install the equipment. I said sure just give me the specifications as to what equipment they were supposed to supply and I will go talk to them. He tells me we don't have anything in writing but had a verbal agreement that they would supply the equipment.
I told him it should be him that goes and talks with the A/V guys then since I have no idea what was actually said and agreed to. I'm sure both parties remembered the conversation they had six months ago differently and both believed they were right. Neither one of them neccessarily thinks the other is a crook but neither one can be absolutely sure of what was said. Both parties feel they remember the correct version of the conversation. Something in writing can alleviate a lot of hard feelings.
Having something in writing should not offend either pary. It's for the benefit of both of you.
This could have been easily avoided by having something in writing stating that the invoice was for the completed work thus far and that the rest of the work would be billed upon completion.
People can misinterpret what was said and it can be more clear to them when they can see it in writing. Also it's easy for people to forget what was said.
Having it in writing is not just about trusting each other. It's a way to make sure what was said is not forgotten or misinterpeted by either party.
One time the company I was working for had a verbal agreement with a A/V company to install a sound system for some new offices being built. At the end of the project the sound system wasn't working so my boss had me check it out. There wasn't any equipment in the rack just the wiring sitting there ready to be connected to the equipment.
When I told my boss about it he told me to talk to the A/V guys and let them know they needed to install the equipment. I said sure just give me the specifications as to what equipment they were supposed to supply and I will go talk to them. He tells me we don't have anything in writing but had a verbal agreement that they would supply the equipment.
I told him it should be him that goes and talks with the A/V guys then since I have no idea what was actually said and agreed to. I'm sure both parties remembered the conversation they had six months ago differently and both believed they were right. Neither one of them neccessarily thinks the other is a crook but neither one can be absolutely sure of what was said. Both parties feel they remember the correct version of the conversation. Something in writing can alleviate a lot of hard feelings.
Having something in writing should not offend either pary. It's for the benefit of both of you.
This could have been easily avoided by having something in writing stating that the invoice was for the completed work thus far and that the rest of the work would be billed upon completion.
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Rewire
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake of the Ozarks
If you get burned and come on to the forum and complain about getting burned and several people give you sound advice on how to prevent this from happening and you refuse to take this advice when you get burned again don't come around here whinning about it.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
Mule,
We've all had one and I think most of us handled it the same way that you did. The bad thing is, you can never seem to remember every good customer you've had, but you can sure remember every bad one.
We've all had one and I think most of us handled it the same way that you did. The bad thing is, you can never seem to remember every good customer you've had, but you can sure remember every bad one.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Mule didn't get burned, he was trying to take advantage of this nice old lady. He went out and did work with no authorization and billed for services that were not requested. He's probably some kind of a con man. If I were the Judge I would throw the book at him.
Folks that's just how it's going to look if it ever does go to court. :wink:
Why T&M? Give her a price, and leave the hours and material out of the equation.
Welcome the the wonderful world of ECing.
Your a Electrical Contractor, not a day laborer, so estimate the price and, they either accept it, or reject it.
Time and material = I don't know how to estimate a job, so I will work like a day worker and add on the material, and hope I make some money.
Dnkldorf
Senior Member
That is an intresting comment, considering in my state they require a written priced contract on all but very minor work!
I don't run my life, on what others do, or think.
Mr.Sparkle
Senior Member
- Location
- Jersey Shore
This is spot on.
Rewire
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake of the Ozarks
Doing it your own way is fine ,but insulting people because they don't do it your way is not.
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