Flat rate pricing....Who's actually doing it?

[Mule]

Not trying to keep the pot simmering, but the reality is:
There are EC's in NJ charging $1500 for 200A services:
http://tinyurl.com/b2u4pc

[It's a CL ad, but I used tinyurl to mask the reference to CL]

Must be those BR builder packs from the big box stores and a smell'y contractor.... With all due respect, we should blow out the burner on the pot and let it lay........ This is a great forum and and alot of nice folks...

 

[ike5547]

:-?
Laws like what?
I just explained how to use T&M and be in compliance with any law.

That's not T&M as I understand and apply it.

Laws like what? The requirement that a fixed price be established for jobs over $500. That is a huge difference with respect to California and would fundamentally change the way things are done here.

 

[Mr. Wizard]

your right, I shouldnt have said anything. It only winds up bitting me in the butt. But seriously how do you even get material for 400 bucks for a 200 amp service change?

Did one two weeks ago, paid $471 dollars for materials, and charged $2000. It took me 4 hours to start and finish. I'll often charge $10 an amp on services. That number has worked well for me. I don't flat-rate many other things, I always end up getting bit by some unforeseen problem.

 

[LarryFine]

But seriously how do you even get material for 400 bucks for a 200 amp service change?

Define "material."

With a back-to-back meter/panel, there's the panel, breakers, a few feet of SE, and grounding. The POCO provides meter bases and does everything line-side of the meter (exc. masts.)

Home Depot pricing:

Homeline 200a MB Value Pack 40/40 w/10 20a 1p = $154.00
15a 1p - 3.25, 5 = $16.25
30a 2p - 7.84, 3 = $23.52
40a 2p - 7.84, 1 = $7.84
SEU - 3.00/ft, 6' = $18.00
Ground rod, 9.25, 2 = $18.50
Ground clamps, 3 = $9.75
Ground wires = $25

Total = $272.86

Of course, there are variables, probably more circuits, and the POCO isn't so generous in other areas, but it's doable.

 

[Mule]

So, we use flat rate "estimates" but not quotes....In truth our estimates are a range.....like $800-$1000 or $1200-$1400....

 

[celtic]

That's not T&M as I understand and apply it.

Laws like what? The requirement that a fixed price be established for jobs over $500. That is a huge difference with respect to California and would fundamentally change the way things are done here.

Laws are like the NEC....it doesn't really say what you think it says

 

[ike5547]

So, we use flat rate "estimates" but not quotes....In truth our estimates are a range.....like $800-$1000 or $1200-$1400....

I'm under the impression that in New Jersey if the work will exceed $500 then a quote (as in fixed price) must be established for a specified job.

I wonder if it has to be in writing before the job is started or if an oral agreement can be made.

 

[ike5547]

Laws are like the NEC....it doesn't really say what you think it says

Well I always wondered why the flat rate contractors on this site seemed to be so heavily concentrated into one geographical area. The answer has clicked into place.

 

[celtic]

Define "material."

With a back-to-back meter/panel, there's the panel, breakers, a few feet of SE, and grounding. The POCO provides meter bases and does everything line-side of the meter (exc. masts.)

Home Depot pricing:

Total = $272.86

Of course, there are variables, probably more circuits, and the POCO isn't so generous in other areas, but it's doable.

I just ran your scenario using one of my handy dandy spreadsheets:

[old picture for illustration]
Material came to $650.49 w/o tax.


In NJ, we are responsible for the mast [POCO will give you a pan in some areas]

 

[celtic]

I'm under the impression that in New Jersey if the work will exceed $500 then a quote (as in fixed price) must be established for a specified job.

Why were you under that impression?

Well I always wondered why the flat rate contractors on this site seemed to be so heavily concentrated into one geographical area. The answer has clicked into place.

I do not think you are understanding the concepts.
No offense.

What is Ca. law?
Post a bit of it :wink:

 

[Mule]

I'm under the impression that in New Jersey if the work will exceed $500 then a quote (as in fixed price) must be established for a specified job.

I wonder if it has to be in writing before the job is started or if an oral agreement can be made.

Dont know, my head is spinning........:smile: This is educational to me, and sure makes me apreciate the conservatively governed state that I live in...but I guess if contractors cant be trusted and are screwing the customer the goverment has to step in and establish a method to quote jobs over a certain amount....

 

[ike5547]

Why were you under that impression?

Can you legally run up an hourly based tab of say $30,000 dollars in New Jersey with out prior specification of the amount for a specifically delineated project?

I do not think you are understanding the concepts.
No offense.

What is Ca. law?
Post a bit of it :wink:

California is silent on the issue.

 

[celtic]

Can you legally run up an hourly based tab of say $30,000 dollars in New Jersey with out prior specification of the amount for a specifically delineated project?

Sure.
"Firm numbers" only apply to residential and non-commercial jobs :wink:

For resi., like I detailed previously in post #53:

You could structure the contract to state: Not to exceed $xxx.xx w/o additional authorization.....the "not to exceed" amount could be your rate x 4hr - 6 hr - 8 hr - 40 hr....whatever you have figured to a reasonable amount of time. The customer is, of course, free to decline the T&M offer.

As folks in business, we have to have some idea of how long it's going to take to fix/install something.
Sometimes, the path is not clear on how we are going to achieve this...troubleshooting is one example...sometimes it's clear, sometimes not so much.
A "not to exceed w/o additional authorization" figure covers the bases....for the HO, the EC, and the "legal department".

California is silent on the issue.

Silent?

I thought a contract was needed on jobs over a certain dollar amount as well as amount of deposit allowed [I forget if that number was $ or % based]

 

[celtic]

Dont know, my head is spinning........:smile:

Put down the wine glass


j/k Mule :smile:

 

[Mule]

Put down the wine glass


j/k Mule :smile:

Hey, that sounds pretty good actually......

 

[LarryFine]

Put down the wine glass

Hey, that sounds pretty good actually......

"Young man, sit down, and whatever you have in your mouth, swallow it immediately!"

"Hey, thanks a lot, Sister!" ~ Cheech and Chong

 

[ike5547]

Sure.


Silent?

I thought a contract was needed on jobs over a certain dollar amount...

I'm looking into it.

...as well as amount of deposit allowed [I forget if that number was $ or % based]

That's either 10% or $1000. Whichever is less.

 

[celtic]

That's either 10% or $1000. Whichever is less.

This is where the left coast differs from the right...
In NJ, we are not allowed to take final payment until after final inspection ~ but the State does not dictate a dollar or percent we must wait for....I like 1%.

 

[jmsbrush]

Mule I agree, Demographics play a big part in pricing. As long as you know your true cost and making a profit thats comfortable for you and you are where you are in your life. Then I think that is Fine.

I use flat rate for all service work and small jobs. The best thing I ever did!:smile:

 

[Mr. Wizard]

The POCO provides meter bases and does everything line-side of the meter.

Aorund here we provide the meter base, not the meter itself, but the enclosure it goes in. No offense to anyone, but I tend to shy away from SqD Homelite. If I use SqD, I go with the QO series. A little more pricey, but it helps me sleep better at night.