For all you "20 ampers"

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For all you "20 ampers"

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emahler said:
i say this only half joking...but you are correct...

we don't have moving parts in most of what we do...if we do the job right, it will last 40 yrs...if we do it half right, it'll still last 20 yrs...we screw ourselves in the long run....

frizbee, good call on the replacement:D
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If we do it half right, we'll never get a Certificate of Occupancy!
 
480sparky said:
So your inspectors let it go when half your job is done incorrectly?
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i didn't say 'half correct'...i said 'half right' (i was trying not to say 'half assed')....but to answer your question, depends on the day, the inspector and the contractor...i've seen things 90% incorrect get passed...
 
emahler said:
i didn't say 'half correct'...i said 'half right' (i was trying not to say 'half assed')....but to answer your question, depends on the day, the inspector and the contractor...i've seen things 90% incorrect get passed...
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Your words were:

emahler said:
...if we do it half right, it'll still last 20 yrs....
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Now keep in mind, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but it something is half right, then the other half is wrong.

And, if you've done something that is 90% wrong, you need to hang up your tool belt, especially if it gets inspected.

And if the inspector passes something that is 90% wrong, God help those customers.
 
quogueelectric said:
Smokes have to be on the master bedroor lighting ckt in my neck of the woods so it will be noticed and fixed quickly if there is a problem.
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Doesn't the code require battery back-up smokes? Does your neck of the woods allow straight AC smokes?

That was the purpose of making the code require battery back-ups. If the battery goes, the AC chirps...if the AC goes, the battery chirps.
 
480sparky said:
Your words were:



Now keep in mind, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but it something is half right, then the other half is wrong.

And, if you've done something that is 90% wrong, you need to hang up your tool belt, especially if it gets inspected.

And if the inspector passes something that is 90% wrong, God help those customers.
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i don't disagree...my primary point was, we don't even have to do a perfect job and it will last for a long time...meaning we don't have all the repair/maintenance work that the plumbing and hvac trades have...
 
i use 14 in every residential job, and i save mucho$$$$. i don't know where some of you get the idea that it will take many more home runs, labor, etc. . . but that has not been true in my experience. also, you can't put the smokes on just any 20A circuit. they have to be on an AFCI circuit.

in a typical <2k 3 bed home, i have the following;

15A - 2 guest beds - afci
15A - Master bed - afci
15A - bedroom lights, smokes, - afci
15A - lights
15A - lights
15A - garage & outside receps on gfci recep
15A - overhead door opener, doorbell, attic lights, etc..
15A - dishwasher
15A - microwave
15A - refrigerator
15A - living rm, hall receps, etc. . (usually about 15 +/- receps)
20A - kitchen receps
20A - kitchen receps
20A - washing machine
20A - guest bath
20A - master bath
20A - dining/nook receps
___________________

that's it for the 120v stuff, i may have missed one or two, but i don't see any extra home runs that had to be pulled because of using 14ga. even w/ 12ga i would split the bedrooms like i do. the joints are easier to make, the devices can be backstabbed. its a no-brainer. the material cost difference on this job would be around $150-$200; the labor difference is more significant.
 
emahler said:
i didn't say 'half correct'...i said 'half right' (i was trying not to say 'half assed')....but to answer your question, depends on the day, the inspector and the contractor...i've seen things 90% incorrect get passed...
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It's all clear to me now we need more incompetence in this country to save the economy. If we didn't have an idiot in the white house we wouldn't have a war and the defense industry would be unemployed. If auto manufacturers built a decent car most of the auto mechanics would be out of a job. If any of the crap imported from China were ment to last then Wal Mart would be out of business.

The very last thing we need are professionals doing quality work. It's so simple you would think Warren Buffet would have though of it.
 
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jaylectricity said:
Doesn't the code require battery back-up smokes? Does your neck of the woods allow straight AC smokes?

That was the purpose of making the code require battery back-ups. If the battery goes, the AC chirps...if the AC goes, the battery chirps.
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Yes battery backup 120v 3wire smokes and co detector Must Have LED Number display like the homeowner needs to know how many ppm co is dangerous. He only needs to know alarm BAD no alarm GOOD . When you change the batterys every 6 months like you are supposed to guess what No Chirp!!
 
brantmacga said:
i use 14 in every residential job, and i save mucho$$$$. i don't know where some of you get the idea that it will take many more home runs, labor, etc. . . but that has not been true in my experience. also, you can't put the smokes on just any 20A circuit. they have to be on an AFCI circuit.

in a typical <2k 3 bed home, i have the following;

15A - 2 guest beds - afci
15A - Master bed - afci
15A - bedroom lights, smokes, - afci
15A - lights
15A - lights
15A - garage & outside receps on gfci recep
15A - overhead door opener, doorbell, attic lights, etc..
15A - dishwasher
15A - microwave
15A - refrigerator
15A - living rm, hall receps, etc. . (usually about 15 +/- receps)
20A - kitchen receps
20A - kitchen receps
20A - washing machine
20A - guest bath
20A - master bath
20A - dining/nook receps
___________________

that's it for the 120v stuff, i may have missed one or two, but i don't see any extra home runs that had to be pulled because of using 14ga. even w/ 12ga i would split the bedrooms like i do. the joints are easier to make, the devices can be backstabbed. its a no-brainer. the material cost difference on this job would be around $150-$200; the labor difference is more significant.
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Come on now How much more labor to wire a house in 12?? Ill give you a 500$ diference and based on the homes in my area are in the 1-500 million dollar range I dont think it is a tough sell to go for 12 wire.
 
brantmacga said:
i use 14 in every residential job, and i save mucho$$$$. i don't know where some of you get the idea that it will take many more home runs, labor, etc. . . but that has not been true in my experience. also, you can't put the smokes on just any 20A circuit. they have to be on an AFCI circuit.

that's it for the 120v stuff, i may have missed one or two, but i don't see any extra home runs that had to be pulled because of using 14ga. even w/ 12ga i would split the bedrooms like i do. the joints are easier to make, the devices can be backstabbed. its a no-brainer. the material cost difference on this job would be around $150-$200; the labor difference is more significant.
Click to expand...

Just did a 3 bed home

20A - 2 guest beds - afci
20A - Master bed + smokes - afci
20A - lights & Doorbell
20A - garage & outside receps on gfci recep, overhead door opener, attic lights, etc
20A - dishwasher/disposal
20A - microwave
20A - refrigerator
20A - living rm, hall receps, etc. . (usually about 15 +/- receps)
20A - kitchen receps, dining/nook receps
20A - kitchen receps
20A - washing machine
20A - guest bath
20A - master bath


You have 17 HRs, I have 13, and all of mine are 12/3 except Bedrooms and Garage (panel is in garage).

P.S. I would NEVER back stab. Been on TO MANY service calls. It's a no brainer.
 
quogueelectric said:
Yes battery backup 120v 3wire smokes and co detector Must Have LED Number display like the homeowner needs to know how many ppm co is dangerous. He only needs to know alarm BAD no alarm GOOD . When you change the batterys every 6 months like you are supposed to guess what No Chirp!!
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So then what was your point about putting the smokes on the master bedroom circuit to keep them conspicuous? Like you just said, if you change the batteries there will be no chirp...but if you don't there WILL be a chirp to remind you.
 
Minuteman said:
Just did a 3 bed home

20A - 2 guest beds - afci
20A - Master bed + smokes - afci
20A - lights & Doorbell
20A - garage & outside receps on gfci recep, overhead door opener, attic lights, etc
20A - dishwasher/disposal
20A - microwave
20A - refrigerator
20A - living rm, hall receps, etc. . (usually about 15 +/- receps)
20A - kitchen receps, dining/nook receps
20A - kitchen receps
20A - washing machine
20A - guest bath
20A - master bath


You have 17 HRs, I have 13, and all of mine are 12/3 except Bedrooms and Garage (panel is in garage).

P.S. I would NEVER back stab. Been on TO MANY service calls. It's a no brainer.
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the difference in home runs is not because i use 14ga, that's just how i prefer to do them.

i have always backstabbed and had a total of ZERO callbacks because of a failed connection, nor have i ever had a service call for someone else's backstabbed connection failing. you must have monkeys installing the receptacles up there. :)

the labor difference, including rough & trim, is around 3-4 hrs.
 
growler said:
If we didn't have an idiot in the white house
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Come on, that's a lot to ask for. At best, we have had maybe 5 non idiots in our whole history as a nation. One might even say that the top 3 running now are all poised for idiot status. At the very least, for now - in the opinion of somebody of the opposite party. :grin:
 
brantmacga said:
the difference in home runs is not because i use 14ga, that's just how i prefer to do them.

i have always backstabbed and had a total of ZERO callbacks because of a failed connection, nor have i ever had a service call for someone else's backstabbed connection failing. you must have monkeys installing the receptacles up there. :)

the labor difference, including rough & trim, is around 3-4 hrs.
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You also install one more AFCI then do I (until the '08 kicks in).

As far as the backstabed failing, they will - just wait. It's not the installation, it's the poor design of the recep. :D
 
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