Gastite bonding

[M. D.]

...On the other hand, for someone whose house has just been fritzed, to their homeowner's insurance company, a licensed professional with insurance who failed to follow instructions is a trivially easy target, so easy it would probably be settled rather than litigated....

Exactly , now who is it that did not follow "his" instructions me, the electrician who only looked at the instructions because of Scott ? or the trained and qualified csst piping professional.

Unless I was hired to install the bond wiring and did not perform the work I was paid for , looks to me like the gas fitter man is in deep doo doo

 

[M. D.]

MD- sorry, didn't connect you to your previous post... not aiming at you, just the concept... and yes, i would say your solution is reasonable.

Thank you but there is nothing to be sorry about, what concept are you talking about??
I'm not sure when I would have learned about this issue if it had not been for Scott, I guess it would have been the first time I was hired to bond it.

 

[wbalsam1]

CSST Building & Electrical Code issue

CSST Building & Electrical Code issue

Hi: Okay, here's another round-about way to come at this issue. Take a look at 334.10(2) & (3), for example. This section covers the permitted use of NM cable. The types of construction are based on NFPA 220-1999 and Table E-1 in Annex E which discusses building code types of construction. Why would the NEC discuss heavy timber? Is heavy timber electrical equipment? I think most of us would agree that heavy timber is a building code issue within the NEC. So, bonding of gas piping which is actually mentioned at 250.104(B) is also a building code issue that is relative to 110.3. There is a factual body of evidence in the real world of catastrophic events due to the failure of this product in electrical fault condition(s), in which building(s) have been destroyed. Just as Table E1 of annex E facilitates assimilation of NFPA 220-1999 with Article 334 of NFPA-70, 2005, so too does 110.3 to bonding in accordance with the Gastite manufacturer's amended installation instructions. Each State that has adopted one of the more than four model codes available(each with its own family of standards) has something very similar in language to that occuring in Annex G 80.9(C). It seems to me that when the Gastite goes in, the electrician, plumber and building inspector should all sit up and take notice.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There is no listing requirement or code that requires the bonding recomended by Gastight. The NEC does not require any special action to bond gas piping systems. If 250.104(B) is complied with the obligation of the electrical contractor is fullfilled. If Gastite wants this special bonding, then they need to contract someone to install it.
Don

 

[iwire]

Hi: Okay, here's another round-about way to come at this issue.

First off an inspector should not be looking for a 'round-about-way' to make the NEC fit a situation.

Take a look at 334.10(2) & (3), for example. This section covers the permitted use of NM cable. The types of construction are based on NFPA 220-1999 and Table E-1 in Annex E which discusses building code types of construction. Why would the NEC discuss heavy timber? Is heavy timber electrical equipment?

The NEC does not 'discuss heavy timber'.

The Annexes are not part of the electrical code.

From 90.3

Annexes are not part of the requirements of this Code but are included for informational purposes only.

I think most of us would agree that heavy timber is a building code issue within the NEC.

I know I do not and will be surprised if anyone else does.

So, bonding of gas piping which is actually mentioned at 250.104(B) is also a building code issue that is relative to 110.3.

If Gas piping is actually a building code issue than it is clearly not an NEC issue.

But in my experience gas piping is covered under a plumbing or gas fitting code.

It seems to me that when the Gastite goes in, the electrician, plumber and building inspector should all sit up and take notice.

No, the certified installer of Gastite should know what they are doing and hire an electrician to take care of the bonding.

I say certified as Gastite can not be installed without training.

 

[M. D.]

wbalsam , I'm not sure why you can't see that the requirement is not in the NEC?
I have a question for you , I looked at the installation guide I linked to, there are a whole bunch of requirements to be complied with . For instance hardened steel striker plates , and it is not to be used as a flexible connection on a moveable appliance.
If these two requirements are not met are you saying it is somehow my responsibility too? How about the support of csst ? preasure test, proper size and all the rest, are they all my responsibility too? or just the bond cause it seems like it should be??

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

No, the certified installer of Gastite should know what they are doing and hire an electrician to take care of the bonding.

I say certified as Gastite can not be installed without training.

The law suit that the manufacturers are part of (Gastite is only one of the 4 manufacturers of "CSST") has made some people take a closer look at this type of installation. NJ has already come up with a code solution. I know that NYS is working on this (NY is moving at a world record speed for NY), and will have a solution (right or wrong) soon.


As Bob has posted, I believe this will become the standard way these installations are resolved with as small twist.
The building departments will require an electrical application for the bonding when a plumber takes an application for gas work that has CSST as part of the installation.

Soon this will all pass and become standard practice for all of us...pretty much like all new things

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

One other isssue here.


This is a NEW issue...why could not all the different states sit down or conference somehow and come up with the same requirement(s) on this topic. It just staggers my mind that this new situation will have so many different requirements per different states..................How many times have we heard the phrase "communication, communication, communication"?

 

[M. D.]

...The building departments will require an electrical application for the bonding when a plumber takes an application for gas work that has CSST as part of the installation.

Soon this will all pass and become standard practice for all of us...pretty much like all new things

And if it is already bonded when I get there,... well I guess that will be easy money.:grin:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Pierre,

NJ has already come up with a code solution. I know that NYS is working on this (NY is moving at a world record speed for NY), and will have a solution (right or wrong) soon.

If I was the code making body, my solution would be very simple...the use of CSST would be prohibited.
Don

 

[wbalsam1]

Whose Job Is It? Think CSST Bonding!

Whose Job Is It? Think CSST Bonding!

This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody. There was an important job to be done and Everybody was asked to do it. Everybody was sure Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. Somebody got angry about that, because it was Everybody's job. Everybody thought Anybody could do it but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it. It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done!

 

[M. D.]

wbalsam , I don't even know where to begin,.. so I won't .

 

[wbalsam1]

To M.D.

To M.D.

wbalsam , I don't even know where to begin,.. so I won't .

Hi: Please don't lose your sense of humor with me or with this thread. I just like being the devil's advocate sometimes in an effort to discern the scorn beneath the smile so to speak. I agree that a lot of focus is necessary in some of these tight code areas. I deal with a lot of different codes and their respective standards, in my role as an adjunct professor. Many in this thread claim no responsibility through the NEC. Maybe that's so. Maybe 110.3 doesn't apply. I like the public format to discuss these issues, though. I'm a hard sell, but when (and, yes, if) I get it, I've got it for a long time. One thing I like in particular that came up in this thread is the discussion about the building inspector handling the Gastite bonding follow-through thru paperwork generated in his/her office. In most governmental entities, he or she is the AHJ. Thanks. Hope I didn't ruin your day. Life's too short and way too precious.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

wbalsam1,

In most governmental entities, he or she is the AHJ.

That would be rare. The AHJ is the government unit that has the power to adopt and or change building codes. The inspector does not have this authority.

Many in this thread claim no responsibility through the NEC.

I'll take it a step beyond...even if the code requires it, that does not make it the electrical contractors responsibility. It may or may not be the EC's responsibility...it would depend on the scope of work as required by the contact documents.
Don

 

[M. D.]

Wbalsam ,I am not angry just a little dissappointed.
And for the record where I am, "anybody" can't install the bond required in the installation instructions for csst. The question is, who is the "somebody" responsible see to it that all of the installation instructions for a gas piping system are followed?

 

[mpd]

the problem I have is, this should of all been tested before it was put on the market not after the fact when there is many homes that have this product already installed.

and do we know that by installing a separate bond the problem has been solved

 

[mayjong]

and do we know that by installing a separate bond the problem has been solved

it probably won't solve it, but it may help...

 

[yanici]

I don't know if you guys read my post on page 10 of this thread. But, it mentions that in the class action suit settlement, payment was offered to provide a lightning protection system as well as to bond the gas line. It amazes me that new installations only require bonding.:-?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody. There was an important job to be done and Everybody was asked to do it. Everybody was sure Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. Somebody got angry about that, because it was Everybody's job. Everybody thought Anybody could do it but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it. It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done!

I love the quote!!!

 

[iwire]

I love the quote!!!

I might as well but it does not belong here.

The discussion here (IMO) is about what is required by the NEC and what is not.

It's not who is not doing a job that any one could have done.

Let me ask this.

So far the discussion assumes an electrician is already involved on the job.

What happens when a gas fitter runs one of these gas lines in an existing building to a new gas appliance with no electric?

Some water heaters and kitchen appliances do not require any electric.

Should the electrical inspector send a red tag to the last electrician on record for that address?