Gastite bonding

[wbalsam1]

To iwire

To iwire

Here's an excerpt from TB2007-01 Gastite CSST: "Direct bonding of Gastite CSST is required for all gas-piping systems incorporating Gastite CSST whether or not the connected gas equipment is electrically powered."

TB2007-01 also states: "These requirements supercede any prior documents and are mandatory manufacturer's instructions until such time as requirements are adopted by the appropriate national/state model codes and direct bonding installation instructions are specified therein."

 

[don_resqcapt19]

wbalsam1

TB2007-01 also states: "These requirements supercede any prior documents and are mandatory manufacturer's instructions until such time as requirements are adopted by the appropriate national/state model codes and direct bonding installation instructions are specified therein."

Just because the manufacture says these are mandatory instructions doesn't make it so. They are not part of the listing and labeling instructions and they are not part of the NEC. There is no way to force the EC to provide this bonding. The bonding of this very inferior and unsafe product is the responsibility of the manufacture and the installer. This whole issue is nothing more than an attempt by the manufactures to CYA because they have introduced a product that has an unreasonable safety risk.
Don

 

[wbalsam1]

Don

Don

Got it. Just tried to answer iwire.

 

[M. D.]

Got it. Just tried to answer iwire.

Wbalsam1 ,What you posted in response does not address what Iwire is saying .
Either you completely misunderstand this issue, or you enjoy advocating for the devil a little too much for my taste ,either way it is getting old:grin: :smile:

 

[George Stolz]

Should the electrical inspector send a red tag to the last electrician on record for that address?

Well, he should send it to somebody, anybody and everybody if it comes to it. You can't mail a letter to nobody.

 

[wbalsam1]

M.d.

M.d.

Wbalsam1 ,What you posted in response does not address what Iwire is saying .
:grin: :smile:

Question from iwire was this:"What happens when a gas fitter runs one of these gas lines in an existing building to a new gas appliance with no electric?"

Answer from wbalsam1 was this: "Direct bonding of Gastite CSST is required for all gas-piping systems incorporating Gastite CSST whether or not the connected gas equipment is electrically powered."

What part of his question escaped me? There are several talking points involved in this issue...are you suggesting I completely misunderstand them all, or do you have 1 or 2 in mind?

 

[M. D.]

Wbalsam1 , it is the responsibility of the qualified and trained installer to see to it his instructions are followed ,there is no requirement, as of yet, to bond the gas pipe beyond 250.104(2)(b) as far as the NEC is concerned. 90.2 tells us what the scope is and it does not include csst piping installation instructions. These are 3 major things you misunderstand.

 

[George Stolz]

I think Bob said it best a couple pages ago:

The NEC, and therefore 110.3(B) applies only to electric equipment.

It does not apply to gas fired lawn tractors, the pocket fisherman or the installation of Gastite.

Look at 90.2(A). How does the gastite product fit into any of these categories?

And to whom is the correction sent?

 

[wbalsam1]

Leaving this post a smarter guy?

Leaving this post a smarter guy?

OK: To all moderators, electrical contractors, inspectors, referees, umpires, snipers and other interested parties. This will be my last post on this thread. I will leave with my parting shots and take my licks from the sidelines. To those who espouse 90.2: You're right. As an electrician, why look farther when you don't have to legally; You've all made good points. From the narrow focus of the NFPA-70 nearly everything published in this thread has been accurate information and/or advice. I thank you all.

My training for the last 23 years has been with laws that promulgate building codes. Codes that have within them reference standards, of which the electrical code is only a small part. Take for example the Building Code of New York State of which I proudly served as a member of the Technical Subcommittee. This code adopts a family of standards at Chapter 35. There are nearly 1,000 standards and specification codes adopted as part of this building code, of which the NFPA-70, 1999 is only 1. With this much emphasis on materials and methods, (approx. 1,000 "codes", etc.), and with the inclusion of the appendices adopted and made a part of this building code and with precise language addressing applicability, including the part that deals with conflicts between general requirements and specific requirements - well, I'm happy enough on my side of the street. My work has mostly been creating compliance paths and for the last twelve years, creating alternative laws at the State variance board level to provide relief to users of these codes from some of the provisions that create undue hardships. Not meant or directed at anyone in particular, either, but hair-splitting responsibility for safety is best left to someone with more talent for it than me.
Thanks, again.

 

[Sven071@hotmail.com]

Hello all, I am new here... and I was just surfing the net for some info on bonding csst according to the NEC 70..... I am a gasfitter from MD and I mainly work with wardflex..... just by reading this thread has given me lots of good input... thanks to everyone..... but just my 2 cents... csst is safe... i have worked with it for years.... there is nothing better...... less fittings.... less chance of leaks..... think about it.

Anyway, from what I have been reading, I have come to one conclusion.... the csst must be bonded in a way so that " an effective ground-fault current path" is made.... I have been racking my brain on how to do this.... does attaching it to a water line do this.... or do i have to run a wire back to the panel every time?

I agree with everyone that there is a lot of questions when it comes to this stuff.... and believe me I am right there with you.... but what I am discovering is that the plumbing inspectors are hot on this trend.... but I also think it is beyond their scope..... but they still have failed some of my jobs.....

If any of you need some clarification on csst or general questions about the stuff.... I would be happy to answer them

Sven

 

[iwire]

I have come to one conclusion.... the csst must be bonded in a way so that " an effective ground-fault current path" is made.... I have been racking my brain on how to do this.... does attaching it to a water line do this.... or do i have to run a wire back to the panel every time?

Check your local rules, here you would need an electrical license to install electrical conductors for hire.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

Here is the Gastight link again.

http://www.gastite.com/include/languages/english/downloads/pdfs/TB2007_01.pdf

They dropped the mention of who is to bond it.

 

[M. D.]

In Massachusetts a license would be required to bond as outline in the Latest bulletin.
In Maine I think it to be a different story. Check local codes.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

What do you think about this Gastite bulletin?



Bonding location
By referencing NEC-2005 Article 250.70, aren't they saying that the bond must be attached to the grounding electrode? This seems to contradict their other suitable bonding connection locations, or at least confuses the issue.

I may be reading into it to much, but if I am not, then they should say "where the bond is made at the grounding electrode the connection must be in accordance with 250.70" or something like that.



Service entrance
They dictate where the bond must be made. "... at or near the service entrance..." The confusion here is that there are two service entrances, one for the electric, and one for the gas. This confuses the issue.

I believe that they require the bond be made at the gas service entrance.

 

[george t. everett]

At our local IEAI meeting everyone agreed that 110.3(B) does not pertain
to the bonding of gas piping. It was also brought up that there is not a ground clamp approved or listed for grounding gas piping.

 

[M. D.]

This is from the NFPA 54 (National fuel Gas Code) proposals 2005 . I thought I would share it for anyone interested.


_______________________________________________________________
54-5 Log #5 Final Action: Reject
(5.6.3.4 & 6.2.8)
________________________________________________________________
SUBMITTER: John M. Halliwill, Int?l Assn. of Plumbing & Mechanical
Officials (IAPMO)
COMMENT ON PROPOSAL NO: 54-42
RECOMMENDATION: Create clear minimum bonding and grounding
requirements for metallic fuel gas piping. Bonding and grounding guidelines
for metallic fuel gas piping differ between NFPA 54 and ANSI LC 1/CSA 6.26.
NFPA currently contains no specific requirements for bonding or grounding of
CSST. LC 1 states that the manufacturer shall provide the method in their
instructions, however, there is no consistency between manufacturers. Several
CSST manufacturers feel that NFPA 54 must provide minimum requirements
that will apply to all manufacturers. I have suggested that they propose TIAs
before the next TC meeting to amend not only NFPA 54, but the UMC and
UPC also.
SUBSTANTIATION: Lightning strikes and near lightning strikes have been
found to cause damage to and subsequent leakage in metallic fuel gas piping
systems. Minimum bonding and grounding requirements are a key first step to
preventing this problem.
COMMITTEE MEETING ACTION: Reject
COMMITTEE STATEMENT: The submitter does not provide specific text
to revise the code.
The committee acknowledges that this subject is of concern, but that it is
premature to revise the National Fuel Gas Code at this time because data is not
available on which base specific requirements.
NUMBER ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 31
BALLOT RESULTS: Affirmative: 29
BALLOT NOT RETURNED: 2 EDGAR, FOSSA
_______________________________________________________________

 

[jhockman]

here in north carolina we have had gas companies in two counties that would not set meters with the bonding installed.

 

[stwalkover]

Csst

Csst

The Authority for requiring bonding would come for m the listing and labeling of the product 110.3 (B). If it is part of the products requirement for installation how can you ignore the manufactures requirements?

 

[yanici]

There is a web page,http://www.pddocs.com/csst/faq.aspx#Q23, with the conditions of the settlement for a class action suit brought against the cssp manufacturers. It explains the provisions for vouchers with a value of from $200-$2000 for the installation of a lightning protection system and $75-$160 for bonding and grounding. This would be for existing installations. Apparently if it's a new installation you're on your own. Nice,huh.

I'm also curious why the gastite installation instructions do not mention anything about installing a lightning protection system. The class action settlement calls for lightning protection and bonding. As Cpal said in an earlier post this opens a can of worms.(Hope I quoted you right. Sorry if I didn,t).

Sorry about quoting myself. I just wanted to reiterate that a lightning protection system is being recommended as well as bonding in the class action suit mentioned above. Hope I'm not beating a dead horse.

 

[george t. everett]

Does 110.3(B) pertain to other then electrical equipment?
How about a weather vane?