GEC entering panel

[wyreman]

I'm thankful that I didn't get injured from the arc flash. :thumbsup:

my 15 kCal blast suit is only for 480v & more.

 

[goldstar]

Panel bus probably should have been replaced also in that situation. Homeline bus is tin plated aluminum, filing off anything leaves you with just aluminum wherever you do this.

self tapping screws - in particular a coarse threaded screw - leaves you with less thread contact in the metal then a machine thread screw - plus the factory bonding screw location is machined to make thicker wall at the point the screw is installed to make more thread contact depth. Add to that if the bonding screw wasn't tight enough you have additional arcing at that weak connection point(s)

Good info to know. This happened 18 years ago so the chances of me going back to say "Sorry about your breaker panel, I'd like to replace it because I scraped off the plating and used self-tapping screws for the ground bar" is a shot in a million.

 

[goldstar]

my 15 kCal blast suit is only for 480v & more.

That's nice to know. If I knew it might have happened I might have worn one if I had one.

 

[Leespark57]

This is a great thread. What if, instead of a $10 Kenny clamp, one were to install a simple $.25 1/2" pvc connector only. Would that be a violation? What if a small section of pvc were connected to the connector to create a sleeve for the GEC to enter the panel?

 

[MAC702]

This is a great thread. What if, instead of a $10 Kenny clamp, one were to install a simple $.25 1/2" pvc connector only. Would that be a violation? What if a small section of pvc were connected to the connector to create a sleeve for the GEC to enter the panel?

May be a Code issue there with a "dry location" if those are listed as such. But, practically speaking, there's no difference I can think of, assuming installed on bottom, of course.

 

[Little Bill]

May be a Code issue there with a "dry location" if those are listed as such. But, practically speaking, there's no difference I can think of, assuming installed on bottom, of course.

We are talking about a GEC. Do you think a GEC requires a dry location? They get sleeved in PVC all the time to keep from having to bond the GEC to the raceway.

 

[MAC702]

We are talking about a GEC. Do you think a GEC requires a dry location? They get sleeved in PVC all the time to keep from having to bond the GEC to the raceway.

EDIT: Only now did I figure out what he meant by "PVC connector." I had pictured a plastic NM bushing in my head and that's all I could think of. Now, I'm realizing he meant, you know, a PVC connector, as in connecting PVC conduit. So, um, never mind!

 

[romex jockey]

Is that an opinion or a fact? Most inspectors around here are not going to care if they call it a GEC KO or a drainage KO. House A has Sq D Meter pan next door house B has Milbank, does the inspector care if each uses that KO for the GEC?

I'm a certified IAEI inspector, i also attend meetings when i can, 20 yrs now

I'll simply say that AHJ's can be just as complacent as anyone else in this trade, i've seen them walk by a lot of minor details with out ado.

That said, it IS their job to enforce the code, and the greater part of this IS delving into detail(s) especially when asked

So, here are the code issues (from Kenny)>>>

250.4(A)(1) Electrical systems that are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limited the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to the earth during normal operation. ( Listed Fittings will limit sideflash NFPA 780 Lightning Protection)

• 250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment Grounding and bonding conductors are required to be installed with a listed fitting.

• 250.64(B) Securing and Protection from Physical Damage
Provides proper strain relief required by the UL/ANSI Standards
UL 467 Grounding and Bonding and UL 486A for Connectors, see
Annex A, NEC.

• 250.64(E) Enclosures for Grounding Electrode Conductors
Using a rigid coupling and a Kenny clamp®, one can bond both ends of a raceway without bending the conductor through a lug connected to a bond bushing.

• 300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings – Where Required Fittings and conductors shall be used for the specific wiring method for which they are designed.

• 312.5(A) Openings to Be Closed. Openings through which conductors enter cabinets, cutout boxes and meter enclosures shall be adequately closed.

I believe we've a code issue, I also believe i've been violating the code for quite some time.

I've also been an EC for decades, and have dealt with my share of lightning related scenarios, as well as the bureaucracies that flock to them , and will further paint you the worst one i can imagine happening

Given i've run many a GEC thru a 1/4" hole, one can imagine the choke effect (as stated in UL & EE level literature) 97%

That might matter with a direct lightning hit of mega volts and amps , the damage from lack of a compliant install evident, an insurance investigator who calls in an EE or other electrically certified entity points out the violations using the codes posted above

For lack of a connector.....guess who's liable....

~RJ~

 

[jwelectric]

For lack of a connector.....guess who's liable....

~RJ~

Amen brother well said.

I have ask and no one has answered a simple question. If 250.64(E)(1) requires both ends of rigid meal conduit to be bonded to the conductor why is a meter pan not required to be bonded.

As s code official I could care less what someone writes in their paper work all I am interested in is 110.3(B) what does a third party say the hole is for and not one says for the GEC

 

[Mgraw]

So, here are the code issues (from Kenny)>>>







entity points out the violations using the codes posted above



~RJ~

What you posted is Kenny's opinion of what code requires, not what code says.

 

[romex jockey]

Amen brother well said.

I have ask and no one has answered a simple question. If 250.64(E)(1) requires both ends of rigid meal conduit to be bonded to the conductor why is a meter pan not required to be bonded.

As s code official I could care less what someone writes in their paper work all I am interested in is 110.3(B) what does a third party say the hole is for and not one says for the GEC

thank you Mike

250.64(E) addresses (main passage)>>> Ferrous metal raceways and enclosures <<<<

an 'enclosure' can be meter, panel, troff, JB, etc

Mike Holt himself portrays this in his literature>

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

FWIW, i'm not a Kenny salesman, don't know anyone who works for Kenny, do not own Kenny stock , am not here to promote Kenny, do not know if Kenny has a competitor on the market, and up to last week didn't know Kenny clamps existed.

But i'm going out the door this morning, and riding by a number of my own installs wishing i did ~RJ~

 

[kwired]

Amen brother well said.

I have ask and no one has answered a simple question. If 250.64(E)(1) requires both ends of rigid meal conduit to be bonded to the conductor why is a meter pan not required to be bonded.

As s code official I could care less what someone writes in their paper work all I am interested in is 110.3(B) what does a third party say the hole is for and not one says for the GEC

If the conductor terminates in the meter pan where is "the other end" that needs bonded? You are not passing through you are entering and terminating within, plus it generally is terminating on something that already is bonded to the pan.

What you posted is Kenny's opinion of what code requires, not what code says.

I agree, I also think most points made there are emphasizing things NEC maybe sheds a little light on but nothing in NEC actually requires a fitting such as the kenny clamp.

thank you Mike

250.64(E) addresses (main passage)>>> Ferrous metal raceways and enclosures <<<<

an 'enclosure' can be meter, panel, troff, JB, etc

Mike Holt himself portrays this in his literature>

~RJ~

Mike Holt drawings often (maybe even always) show some sort of fitting where a GEC enters such enclosures. You any find any of his literature that says there must be such a fitting there?

Straps on the raceways leaving the bottom of enclosures in the drawing you posted may or may not be needed but they drew them in anyway - but that is not what the focus of that drawing is all about either.

NEC doesn't require us to use a product that only is made by one manufacturer either. I believe that is why you sometimes see a new code requirement that involves a specific product to have a date placed in code as to when it goes into effect - to give time for others to get a product on the market. Is there other companies making a similar product as Kenny clamp or are they the only ones and need to give us reasons why their product is worth using by exaggerating what code says to some extent?

 

[infinity]

There are "Kenny Clamps" made by other manufacturers. If they want to make the use of these products a requirement then they need to write a proposal and have the wording adopted into the NEC. Here's a similar product from Bridgeport:

https://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Bond-...srs=14056560011&ie=UTF8&qid=1514298503&sr=8-3

 

[jwelectric]

If the conductor terminates in the meter pan where is "the other end" that needs bonded? You are not passing through you are entering and terminating within, plus it generally is terminating on something that already is bonded to the pan.

I don't write this stuff or even make it up but I will copy and paste it
Ferrous metal raceways and enclosures shall be bonded at each end of the raceway or enclosure to the grounding electrode or grounding electrode conductor.

 

[roger]

I don't write this stuff or even make it up but I will copy and paste it
Ferrous metal raceways and enclosures shall be bonded at each end of the raceway or enclosure to the grounding electrode or grounding electrode conductor.

So what do you do Mike, run a jumper to the top of the panel or meter can even though the GEC doesn't exit it? IOW's the GEC is terminated (as in connected and stops) so there is no "each end" only "one end"

Roger

 

[MAC702]

...Given i've run many a GEC thru a 1/4" hole, one can imagine the choke effect (as stated in UL & EE level literature) 97% ...

Please cite this more specifically so I can see the exact wording as it applies to entering a 1/4" KO of a thin-walled enclosure.

 

[macmikeman]

There is no code requirement to put a Kenny clamp. Now that I have spoken , you may all rest and it's done. Period.


Now,go out and get yerself some finger lickin good ol fried chicken for lunch and forget all this lunacy.

 

[romex jockey]

So what do you do Mike, run a jumper to the top of the panel or meter can even though the GEC doesn't exit it? IOW's the GEC is terminated (as in connected and stops) so there is no "each end" only "one end"

Roger

There is the GEC entry, and the GEC termination

the codes addresses the 'entry' as 'listed fitting' in 250.8

~CS~

 

[romex jockey]

Please cite this more specifically so I can see the exact wording as it applies to entering a 1/4" KO of a thin-walled enclosure.

from 250.64(E)(1)

Ferrous metal raceways and enclosures
shall be bonded at each end of the raceway or enclosure to the
grounding electrode or grounding electrode conductor to
create an electrically parallel path.

~RJ~