generator interlock switch

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drcampbell said:
I can dream, can't I?

And it's not just idle dreaming; I have a client with a standby generator hardwired into a Pushmatic panel. The only "interlock" is a post-it note.
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Are they quality 3M post-its or the cheap ones you get at Staples ?:p
 
drcampbell said:
I can dream, can't I?

And it's not just idle dreaming; I have a client with a standby generator hardwired into a Pushmatic panel. The only "interlock" is a post-it note.
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Hopefully he has an emergency light over the panel so he can read the post-it note first...
 
GerryB said:
I have never seen one like you are describing. Residential?
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I was questioning like iwire about the post by reliance about not being able to defeat the interlock. If you remove the panel cover you can close the gen breaker and leave the main on. The ones I've used come with a sticker for the gen breaker that is right on the breaker so if you remove the cover you still have that warning. Of course, it's only a sticker.
 
GerryB said:
I was questioning like iwire about the post by reliance about not being able to defeat the interlock. If you remove the panel cover you can close the gen breaker and leave the main on. The ones I've used come with a sticker for the gen breaker that is right on the breaker so if you remove the cover you still have that warning. Of course, it's only a sticker.
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Just about anything can be compromised or defeated if you put your mind to it. The interlock kits are made so that when the panel cover is (normally) in place you can safely operate your portable generator without back-feeding the POCO. Now, if you remove the panel cover - that's not a normal condition. One can also say that if the panel cover is on you cannot get shocked by hitting the main lugs because, obviously you can't. However, if you remove the cover........................:happyyes:
 
iwire said:
We are talking article 702 here, all, we need is approved, listing is not required by the NEC.

Regardless of who makes the interlock they all can be defeated by removing the panel cover.
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Sorry, you are right. 702 doesn't require listed transfer equipment, my mistake.
In my mind I put a lot of weight on the inspection if there is one, so to the original post in the thread (will this meet NEC?).... sure almost any transfer device put together could meet the NEC if it is installed as intended and actually works as intended, but will the inspector pass the inspection if it's not listed? In most cases in the United States, I would go out on a limb and say probably not.
 
GerryB said:
I have never seen one like you are describing. Residential?
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Yes residential, and I know there have been other posts. Here is an Eaton interlock on HD.com
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-Generator-Interlock-Kit-for-BR-Load-Centers-with-CSR-BWH-Main-BRMIKCSR/205050834

The defeating of the interlock is an interesting concept because we have to consider to what lengths must be taken in order to defeat it. It needs to be bolted down to the cabinet (UL 1008) if it's to be listed, so that even with the dead front removed it can't be defeated. Of course, someone can still remove it if they want to, but that would be intentional. The point is to allow the dead front be removed and yet still avoid defeat of the interlock simply due to the cover is being off (meaning you still can't turn ON both the utility and gen breakers that are linked). Someone would have to intentionally remove or mess with the interlock assembly, which of course is their choice.
 
mjf said:
A few years back, the only UL listed interlocks were made by the panel manufacturers and all the aftermarket ones were not UL listed.

That is no longer the case, as I know of 2 aftermarket (internet) companies whose interlock kits are now UL listed. You can now get a UL listed interlock kit for most panels/brands.....I installed one on a Gould panel a few weeks ago.
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As far as I know that is still the case. Would you be ok with naming those two internet companies? I understand if I'm overstepping here and you don't want to name them.
But I have not seen any UL mark on any aftermarket kit and I only know of 1 company that makes them for a variety of panels and they have made them for a long time without any listing.



goldstar said:
It seems a shame that the after-market interlock kits aren't accepted by many municipalities (like the ones at Interlockkit.com). They really did the research into various panels and the kits that they've designed work fine. IMHO, irrespective of the listing and being accepted by an NRTL, the kits make a portable generator installation safe. One EI told me that he had a problem with the cable tie that held the two top breakers together preventing the removal of the generator breaker, citing that the cable tie can become brittle over time and fall off. Pure and unadulterated horse manure, IMHO.
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I think this is a very good post because it highlights the issues of variations regarding the acceptability of "listed" equipment versus unlisted equipment.
UL of course wants the NEC/NFPA to require listed transfer switches (and anything else possible) since forever.

In this case regarding the original post, it ultimately depends on the AHJ and whether they personally are ok with an aftermarket kit that is not listed, or if they are set on only allowing listed transfer equipment.
 
Reliance said:
As far as I know that is still the case. Would you be ok with naming those two internet companies? I understand if I'm overstepping here and you don't want to name them.
But I have not seen any UL mark on any aftermarket kit and I only know of 1 company that makes them for a variety of panels and they have made them for a long time without any listing.

www.interlockkit.com



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Reliance said:
Yes residential, and I know there have been other posts. Here is an Eaton interlock on HD.com
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-Ge...-Centers-with-CSR-BWH-Main-BRMIKCSR/205050834

The defeating of the interlock is an interesting concept because we have to consider to what lengths must be taken in order to defeat it. It needs to be bolted down to the cabinet (UL 1008) if it's to be listed, so that even with the dead front removed it can't be defeated. Of course, someone can still remove it if they want to, but that would be intentional. The point is to allow the dead front be removed and yet still avoid defeat of the interlock simply due to the cover is being off (meaning you still can't turn ON both the utility and gen breakers that are linked). Someone would have to intentionally remove or mess with the interlock assembly, which of course is their choice.
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Sorry, still don't see what you are saying. If you take that panel cover off there is nothing preventing you from flipping breakers.
 
Reliance said:
The defeating of the interlock is an interesting concept because we have to consider to what lengths must be taken in order to defeat it. It needs to be bolted down to the cabinet (UL 1008) if it's to be listed, so that even with the dead front removed it can't be defeated. Of course, someone can still remove it if they want to, but that would be intentional.
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The word defeat implies intention. If someone intends to defeat this feature then they can.
The point is to allow the dead front be removed and yet still avoid defeat of the interlock simply due to the cover is being off (meaning you still can't turn ON both the utility and gen breakers that are linked). Someone would have to intentionally remove or mess with the interlock assembly, which of course is their choice.
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I can't recall an interlock kit that would allow you to do that. The only one that comes close is the Seimens kit where you have to turn off the main breaker in order to remove the cover.

My point in an earlier post is that Interlockkit.com did the research into various panels and made kits that would fit many older panels and make it safe to operate a portable generator in a power outage situation. When an EI makes his case for disapproval because the units are not "Listed" or because they use a cable tie as a tie-down method is just wrong IMHO. The kits make it safe to use a portable generator - period. If this interlock kit company had to put each of these units (per panel manufacturer) through UL it would be exorbitantly expensive and you wouldn't be able to purchase them at a reasonable price.
 
mjf said:
Reliance said:
As far as I know that is still the case. Would you be ok with naming those two internet companies? I understand if I'm overstepping here and you don't want to name them.
But I have not seen any UL mark on any aftermarket kit and I only know of 1 company that makes them for a variety of panels and they have made them for a long time without any listing.

www.interlockkit.com



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Yes, mentioned by name and a link to their site 15 posts and 3 days prior.
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GerryB said:
Sorry, still don't see what you are saying. If you take that panel cover off there is nothing preventing you from flipping breakers.
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Nothing preventing a HO from connecting their generator to the range or dryer outlet with a male -male cord either. Somewhere you have to draw the line at what they may try to defeat. If you have a back fed breaker and interlock kit why do you need to remove the panel cover during a condition of running on standby power? All that is necessary is to turn the main off, move the interlock device, turn the standby breaker on.

Several years ago after a big ice storm, I had all sorts of customers that were not going to have utility power back for possibly several days, no transfer equipment, but a new generator they want to power their house with. Telling them they must have listed transfer gear and that it won't be installed for a few weeks was not the answer they wanted at that time. My solution for many of them was to disconnect their service entrance conductors, pull their meter, or whatever seemed like the easiest method so they can't backfeed the utility unless they intentionally make a move to do so, and then make a temporary connection to their generator. I was likely going to need to come back when utility power was restored to reconnect whatever I disconnected. We could then talk about what they want to do so an electrician doesn't need to be called anytime they have to run on their generator and when we may install it.
 
kwired said:
Nothing preventing a HO from connecting their generator to the range or dryer outlet with a male -male cord either. Somewhere you have to draw the line at what they may try to defeat. If you have a back fed breaker and interlock kit why do you need to remove the panel cover during a condition of running on standby power? All that is necessary is to turn the main off, move the interlock device, turn the standby breaker on.

Several years ago after a big ice storm, I had all sorts of customers that were not going to have utility power back for possibly several days, no transfer equipment, but a new generator they want to power their house with. Telling them they must have listed transfer gear and that it won't be installed for a few weeks was not the answer they wanted at that time. My solution for many of them was to disconnect their service entrance conductors, pull their meter, or whatever seemed like the easiest method so they can't backfeed the utility unless they intentionally make a move to do so, and then make a temporary connection to their generator. I was likely going to need to come back when utility power was restored to reconnect whatever I disconnected. We could then talk about what they want to do so an electrician doesn't need to be called anytime they have to run on their generator and when we may install it.
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I have no problem with interlock kits, installed many. I was questioning the post by reliance implying the kit was installed so if the cover were removed you still could not defeat it. Sounds like he is talking about a 2-part cover.
 
mjf said:
Reliance said:
As far as I know that is still the case. Would you be ok with naming those two internet companies? I understand if I'm overstepping here and you don't want to name them.
But I have not seen any UL mark on any aftermarket kit and I only know of 1 company that makes them for a variety of panels and they have made them for a long time without any listing.

www.interlockkit.com



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The only thing I've ever seen regarding this is that they are being tested by MET labs, if you are confident they are UL I'll buy some myself and check them out :)
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goldstar said:
The word defeat implies intention. If someone intends to defeat this feature then they can.I can't recall an interlock kit that would allow you to do that. The only one that comes close is the Seimens kit where you have to turn off the main breaker in order to remove the cover.

My point in an earlier post is that Interlockkit.com did the research into various panels and made kits that would fit many older panels and make it safe to operate a portable generator in a power outage situation. When an EI makes his case for disapproval because the units are not "Listed" or because they use a cable tie as a tie-down method is just wrong IMHO. The kits make it safe to use a portable generator - period. If this interlock kit company had to put each of these units (per panel manufacturer) through UL it would be exorbitantly expensive and you wouldn't be able to purchase them at a reasonable price.
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Oh I agree in that company did a lot of research in developing their interlocks and they seem to be a quality accessory. I would guess they have been trying to get them listed by a NRTL for a long time.

Any interlock kit according to UL 1008 will not lose it's function and reliability, is the point, when the dead front is removed (and the interlock is not tampered with).
An example would be when someone opens the panel cover to a panel that has an interlock, they can't simply turn both MAIN breakers on at the same time (UTILITY/GEN) because now the dead front is off.

That is why the panel companies kits are UL listed, that's why Generac interlock panels are UL, that's why Milbanks panels are UL, and other companies that make transfer equipment with interlocks installed in panels at their factories are UL.

It's probably the reason Interlockkit kits are not UL because almost all of their kits will allow both main breakers to be turned on when the dead front is removed.

I should be using the term "FAIL" instead of "defeated"
 
Reliance said:
Oh I agree in that company did a lot of research in developing their interlocks and they seem to be a quality accessory. I would guess they have been trying to get them listed by a NRTL for a long time.

Any interlock kit according to UL 1008 will not lose it's function and reliability, is the point, when the dead front is removed (and the interlock is not tampered with).
An example would be when someone opens the panel cover to a panel that has an interlock, they can't simply turn both MAIN breakers on at the same time (UTILITY/GEN) because now the dead front is off.

That is why the panel companies kits are UL listed, that's why Generac interlock panels are UL, that's why Milbanks panels are UL, and other companies that make transfer equipment with interlocks installed in panels at their factories are UL.

It's probably the reason Interlockkit kits are not UL because almost all of their kits will allow both main breakers to be turned on when the dead front is removed.

I should be using the term "FAIL" instead of "defeated"
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I have installed Square D's interlock kits in their panels, you can still turn on the utility main and generator main at the same time if the dead front is removed from the load center. Only seen pictures of some of the other OEM interlocks, but looks like some of them are not much different in primary design.
 
Reliance said:
Any interlock kit according to UL 1008 will not lose it's function and reliability, is the point, when the dead front is removed (and the interlock is not tampered with).
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I have installed both Sq D name brand and Interlock kit after market and both screw right to the dead front is all. Take the dead front off and all you see is panel guts.
 
kwired said:
I have installed Square D's interlock kits in their panels, you can still turn on the utility main and generator main at the same time if the dead front is removed from the load center. Only seen pictures of some of the other OEM interlocks, but looks like some of them are not much different in primary design.
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That's right, there is no difference whatsoever in the functionality of an OEM or aftermarket interlock. I have installed both. The OEM will have the UL listing and the aftermarket will have some kind of listing. Either way, they are defeated by removing the cover. That fact does not bother me in the least. People are definitely overthinking this.
 
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