GFCI's do not need an EGC (moved from another thread)

[iwire]

This thread is nuts, absolutely nuts. :roll:

There are others here who are not as kind and are motivated to misrepresent me they need to be silenced through evidence and or prove it wrong as a fluke they never ever acknowledged the fact that it is possible for whatever reason .

Once again in English please?

I know what I felt.

I have not seen ANYONE say that you will not feel a shock on a GFCI protected circuit.

Regardless of an EGC being connected to the GFCI device if you get between a GFCI protected 'hot' and any grounded equipment you will feel a shock

GFCIs do not prevent anyone from receiving a shock. You must get a shock before the GFCI can detect the imbalance and open the circuit.

GFCI breakers have no EGC connection at all. Do they still function?

 

[cschmid]

Update I didnt forget about everyone I just started a new job wed and My mother had a stroke tues so I am a little preocupied right now. I will be back asap.

Sorry to here about you mom and hope everything is ok...

Now back into the fire..

if it takes milliamps to trip GFCI then you must feel something..

 

[TwinCitySparky]

Sorry to here about you mom and hope everything is ok...

Now back into the fire..

if it takes milliamps to trip GFCI then you must feel something..

Yowzers! 222 posts...

CS....

Down Boy!!! :roll:

Man you guys are just like rotwielers. Drop the bones, there's no meat left... I think everyone knows where they stand. lets clean up the yard. Shake hands. Que's got big stuff going on. Live and let live no?

 

[cschmid]

Yowzers! 222 posts...

CS....

Down Boy!!! :roll:

Man you guys are just like rotwielers. Drop the bones, there's no meat left... I think everyone knows where they stand. lets clean up the yard. Shake hands. Que's got big stuff going on. Live and let live no?

LMAO..I am always having fun with our friendly cow you know cow tastes good on the grill..:grin:..and we need flame to run the grill..

 

[76nemo]

This thread is nuts, absolutely nuts. :roll:



Once again in English please?




I have not seen ANYONE say that you will not feel a shock on a GFCI protected circuit.

Regardless of an EGC being connected to the GFCI device if you get between a GFCI protected 'hot' and any grounded equipment you will feel a shock

GFCIs do not prevent anyone from receiving a shock. You must get a shock before the GFCI can detect the imbalance and open the circuit.

GFCI breakers have no EGC connection at all. Do they still function?

Breakers and devices are a different matter, Quo has made a point, it's obvious people are still listening. 200+ posts? Holy smokes! I can't see in theory where a ground present could make a difference, but the point is he is trying to say something. A GFCI device is very different than it was 15 years ago. A properly working GFCI device is one thing, but they DO fail and are a cause for a good concern,.......

 

[iwire]

Breakers and devices are a different matter,

Say what?

The cow's claim as far as I understood it was simple, GFCIs need a EGC to work. That is false in any universe.

Quo has made a point, it's obvious people are still listening. 200+ posts? Holy smokes! I can't see in theory where a ground present could make a difference, but the point is he is trying to say something. A GFCI device is very different than it was 15 years ago. A properly working GFCI device is one thing, but they DO fail and are a cause for a good concern,.......

What part of that has anything to do with a GFCI needing a EGC to operate?

 

[peter d]

TRegardless of an EGC being connected to the GFCI device if you get between a GFCI protected 'hot' and any grounded equipment you will feel a shock

Having been shocked on a piece of equipment that was plugged into a GFCI receptacle, I can attest that to be true. I can also attest to the GFCI tripping as soon as I started to feel the tingle and before I was injured or killed. They really do what they say they do. And the GFCI may just have saved my life.

 

[LarryFine]

This thread is nuts, absolutely nuts. :roll:

And you're suprised why? :-?

The cow's claim as far as I understood it was simple, GFCIs need a EGC to work. That is false in any universe.

I absolutely agree.

Now, it is possible that the presence of a proper EGC pathway might reduce the shock itself, due to the equipotential effects.

This is similar to a pool's bonding requirements not including an EGC connected to the supply, but only between metal parts.

 

[iwire]

And you're suprised why? :-?

Well I am surprised because this is a yes or no question, no interpretations to be made.

Now, it is possible that the presence of a proper EGC pathway might reduce the shock itself, due to the equipotential effects.

Without a doubt I agree.

But as we are this far into the thread maybe we should look back to the opening post.

A lot of people here believe you dont need a ground for the gfci to work. I have 35+ long years in the buisness and I do not believe they work properly without a ground.

 

[gar]

080830-1423 EST

Larry:

What I described in an earlier post was:

If the EGC is present, you are using equipment that has its chassis connected to the EGC, you are in contact with the earth and the chassis, and there is moderate leakage from the hot circuitry to the chassis, then you may get no shock.

However, if there is a dead short from hot to the chassis, then you may encounter 1/2 the hot line voltage if the ECG is the same size as the hot conductor or somewhat more if the ECG is smaller.

.

 

[76nemo]

Say what?

The cow's claim as far as I understood it was simple, GFCIs need a EGC to work. That is false in any universe.






What part of that has anything to do with a GFCI needing a EGC to operate?

None of it in respect supports that the device needs an EGC to operate properly. What or why are you so hell bent about Bob? Quo is saying something you are working your way around. We are NOT responding to some rookie, let him have his say. He is not some kind of little school boy, let him talk.

 

[quogueelectric]

None of it in respect supports that the device needs an EGC to operate properly. What or why are you so hell bent about Bob? Quo is saying something you are working your way around. We are NOT responding to some rookie, let him have his say. He is not some kind of little school boy, let him talk.

Thank you for your support, and ability to see that some have been dancing around the subject.
With sound bites and irrelevent off topic additions which had nothing to do with the original post to try to steer the herd to thier desired ending.
I did however today set up said experiment and here are the results.
I used a leviton spec grade duplex gfci smartlock white with indicator light. I set up a breadboard with 120v hot,neutraland ground.

I put a 15k resistor in series with a 10k variable potentiometer from hot to ground
I started at 25kohms and trimmed down until it tripped.
Repeating both states twice with and without the ground connected to the device.
#1 W/gr started at 25.1k tripped at 23.8k. #2 removed/gr reset potentiometer to 25.1k and it tripped at 24.2k (.0049) amperes.
Test#3 replaced ground tripped at 24.0 k ohms.Test#4 removed ground tripped at 24.4k.
I have a pic of the setup but I am having trouble downsizing the pic to fit. The results indicated that this particular device works exactly as it should with or without the ground wire connected.
So either the device I came in contact with was defective or they were manufactured differently way back then.
We can all MOOOOOOOOOOOVE ON now but I will post the pic when I can figure out how to downsize the killobites to 145kb in order to post.

 

[quogueelectric]

Thank you for your support, and ability to see that some have been dancing around the subject.
With sound bites and irrelevent off topic additions which had nothing to do with the original post to try to steer the herd to thier desired ending.
I did however today set up said experiment and here are the results.
I used a leviton spec grade duplex gfci smartlock white with indicator light. I set up a breadboard with 120v hot,neutraland ground.

I put a 15k resistor in series with a 10k variable potentiometer from hot to ground
I started at 25kohms and trimmed down until it tripped.
Repeating both states twice with and without the ground connected to the device.
#1 W/gr started at 25.1k tripped at 23.8k. #2 removed/gr reset potentiometer to 25.1k and it tripped at 24.2k (.0049) amperes.
Test#3 replaced ground tripped at 24.0 k ohms.Test#4 removed ground tripped at 24.4k.
I have a pic of the setup but I am having trouble downsizing the pic to fit. The results indicated that this particular device works exactly as it should with or without the ground wire connected.
So either the device I came in contact with was defective or they were manufactured differently way back then.
We can all MOOOOOOOOOOOVE ON now but I will post the pic when I can figure out how to downsize the killobites to 145kb in order to post.

I figued out how to get the pic up. :smile:

 

[480sparky]

Thank you for your support, and ability to see that some have been dancing around the subject.
With sound bites and irrelevent off topic additions which had nothing to do with the original post to try to steer the herd to thier desired ending.
I did however today set up said experiment and here are the results.
I used a leviton spec grade duplex gfci smartlock white with indicator light. I set up a breadboard with 120v hot,neutraland ground.

I put a 15k resistor in series with a 10k variable potentiometer from hot to ground
I started at 25kohms and trimmed down until it tripped.
Repeating both states twice with and without the ground connected to the device.
#1 W/gr started at 25.1k tripped at 23.8k. #2 removed/gr reset potentiometer to 25.1k and it tripped at 24.2k (.0049) amperes. Test#3 replaced ground tripped at 24.0 k ohms.Test#4 removed ground tripped at 24.4k.
I have a pic of the setup but I am having trouble downsizing the pic to fit. The results indicated that this particular device works exactly as it should with or without the ground wire connected.
So either the device I came in contact with was defective or they were manufactured differently way back then.
We can all MOOOOOOOOOOOVE ON now but I will post the pic when I can figure out how to downsize the killobites to 145kb in order to post.

I don't get it.... you say it needs the ground to operate (trip), but it tripped without the ground in your experiment?

 

[gar]

080830-2043 EST

quogueelectric:

Good test. Looks like the threshold is set at a good point. I like the Leviton design, but I have no idea of durability or reliability.

I recent bought a Pass & Seymour 1595 and did a few tests and opened it. I do not like the design and philosophy as well as the Leviton.

Is there anyone that can identify truly bad GFCIs and what were the failure modes. I can see possible problems in wet and moist areas.


I hope your mother is doing well. Give her lots of support and encouragement. Belief that you can recover is a great help.

I went thru this with my mother, my stepmother, and my dad.

.

 

[quogueelectric]

I don't get it.... you say it needs the ground to operate (trip), but it tripped without the ground in your experiment?

Yes this was a post from about 1 1/2 yrs ago where I expressed my stubornness of my belief that a gfci would not work properly without the ground wire attatched due to an incident where I was badly shocked and the gfci did not protect me until I connected the ground where it tripped instantaneously when I came into contact. Bob dragged it out to try to make an example out of me and reposted it as if I recently posted it. This happened over 15 yrs ago in the pouring rain and truly made me make a point to always be sure to connect the ground wire. I have performed a simple test of my own today and the new gfci tripped under both conditions so now I can save time by not hooking up the ground wire I am so happy!:wink::wink:

 

[480sparky]

I must mention that your experiment then has not faithfully duplicated what you expeienced years ago. The only way to do that is to have the GFI in that incidence available, and then recreate the conditions present.

Was that old GFI in good working order? Or was it defective? Was it wired properly (polarity correct and line/load issues)? It's possible that the reason it tripped is because there was moisture between the hot and the ground terminal, and as soon as you hooked up the ground, a fault was detected.

So now you're just not going to hook up the grounds on all your GFIs because they will trip without it? Good luck getting that past the inspectors.

 

[iwire]

We are NOT responding to some rookie, let him have his say. He is not some kind of little school boy, let him talk.

I have not tried stop him from having his say. He says a GFCI needs a EGC to operate, I say that is false. Not very complicated.

 

[iwire]

Bob dragged it out to try to make an example out of me and reposted it as if I recently posted it.

That is absolutely untrue.

I would never intentionally do that to anyone, if you can pin down the specifics it might be helpful.

 

[quogueelectric]

080830-2043 EST

quogueelectric:

Good test. Looks like the threshold is set at a good point. I like the Leviton design, but I have no idea of durability or reliability.

I recent bought a Pass & Seymour 1595 and did a few tests and opened it. I do not like the design and philosophy as well as the Leviton.

Is there anyone that can identify truly bad GFCIs and what were the failure modes. I can see possible problems in wet and moist areas.


I hope your mother is doing well. Give her lots of support and encouragement. Belief that you can recover is a great help.

I went thru this with my mother, my stepmother, and my dad.

.

Thank you for the kind words for my mother she is doing Ok as good as a stroke could give you at that age she keeps getting small mini strokes which nip a little every time at her vision from the brainstem damage. And thank everyone else for thier concern. The gfci that hurt me was basically in a box full of salvaged temp light garbage that was sent to the next job so I put alligator clips on it and dropped a laundry drop off it so I could drill close to any lighting ckt I could clip on to near to where I was working. Thanks to Bob being a pita I have a little more faith in these products.