GFCI's do not need an EGC (moved from another thread)

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quogueelectric

quogueelectric

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new york
tom baker said:
So explain how a GFCI circuit breaker works. It clearly does not have a "ground".
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The thread was about a gfci receptacle and I am not an engineer but I am an electronics tech. I do understand getting a violent shock from the ungrounded and when I grounded it properly it tripped before I could feel the shock.
 
G

gar

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Location
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quogueelectric:

Do you have an identical GFCI that you can disassemble and determine if there is any connection from the ground pins of the socket to any part of the neutral and hot circuitry?

.
 
Buck Parrish

Buck Parrish

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Location
NC & IN
What if you have a 240 volt gfci breaker it has a little twisted neutral that goes to the neutral bar. The equipment does not use a neutral.
I am speaking of an aireator pump for a pond.
Two hots and a ground.
If the gfci uses the neutral to work correctly. How would this protect the person working on the motor, with no neutral present.
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
I just got back from a month road trip but I will reconstruct the exact conditions in a very scientific manner with an adjustable resistor to finally put this (Kitten) to bed probably tues or wed. Amen. I cant take it anymore. Is this 700?
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
gar said:
080822-2056 EST

quogueelectric:

Do you have an identical GFCI that you can disassemble and determine if there is any connection from the ground pins of the socket to any part of the neutral and hot circuitry?

.
Click to expand...
This happened at least 15 yrs ago in the pouring rain I dont have anything but a memoryof ground good, no ground bad. I am not pretending to be an engineer my intention was to warn other electricians of the dangers I felt were imminent from not grounding a gfci recepticle. It is solely my own opinion and I have no scientific evidence to support such theories until next week when I recreate the incident. I may call in Pierre to referee the results as he is not that far from me. I have a lot on my plate right now however I will make time sometime next week to either prove or disprove my theory.
 
G

gar

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Location
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quogueelectric:

I have never doubted your description of the events. I am just trying to figure out a logical explanation for your observation.

.
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
gar said:
080822-2037 EST

quogueelectric:

I have never doubted your description of the events. I am just trying to figure out a logical explanation for your observation.

.
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You are a kind man.
There are others here who are not as kind and are motivated to misrepresent me they need to be silenced through evidence and or prove it wrong as a fluke they never ever acknowledged the fact that it is possible for whatever reason .
I know what I felt.
I just rarely have the time for such shennanigans.
You have actually inspired me to go the extra distance to recreate the situation which can be done with less than 50 bucks and a radio shack pile of goods no one but you and maybe a few others even attempted to understand.
Less than an hour of setup and testing. Let the games begin.
The definition of insanity is expecting a different result from the same experiment.
 
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jim dungar

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PE (Retired) - Power Systems
quogueelectric said:
This happened at least 15 yrs ago ...
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Receptacle type GFCIs have been constantly evolving devices (electronics and pricing pressures will do that). The recent UL standard changes have brought about the most changes, so I would not really compare the construction of todays GFCIs to one from 15yrs ago even though their basic method of operation is the same.
 
M

M_BROWNLOW

Member
Location
Atlantic Canada
76nemo said:
the GFCI device must have a ground in order to be tested with an EXTERNAL tester. The test button will work w/o a ground, but with an EXTERNAL tester, a ground must be present in order for YOUR tester to open the circuit.
Click to expand...

That's a useful little tidbit. Thanks!
You'd think they'd put that in the product literature.
Explains why I haven't been able to trip some in the past.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
M_BROWNLOW said:
That's a useful little tidbit. Thanks!
You'd think they'd put that in the product literature.
Explains why I haven't been able to trip some in the past.
Click to expand...
The reason it works that way is because, in order to simulate a shocking-hazard fault, the test button has to connect a resistor to one conductor ahead of the current sensor and to the other conductor after the sensor.

A plug-in tester has no access to either circuit conductor ahead of the current sensor, so it needs a conductor to which to connect its internal resistor. The EGC contact is the only other available source of such a conductor.
 
M

M_BROWNLOW

Member
Location
Atlantic Canada
LarryFine said:
The reason it works that way is because, in order to simulate a shocking-hazard fault, the test button has to connect a resistor to one conductor ahead of the current sensor and to the other conductor after the sensor.

A plug-in tester has no access to either circuit conductor ahead of the current sensor, so it needs a conductor to which to connect its internal resistor. The EGC contact is the only other available source of such a conductor.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the followup. :)
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
Update I didnt forget about everyone I just started a new job wed and My mother had a stroke tues so I am a little preocupied right now. I will be back asap.
 
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