210.12(A)(1)
Good Zinsco Replacements
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210.12(A)(1)
mbrooke
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Nowhere does it say only A 1. They give you several options.
It does not specifically say AFCI circuit breaker. You are correct with that point. However, you posted a link of an AFCI receptacle. The AFCI receptacle would not provide AFCI protection for the entire circuit as it states in 210.12 (A)(1). My post earlier stated installing a new circuit from a Zinsco panel and that you can not get an AFCI circuit breaker for a Zinsco panel. In that circumstance the Zinsco panel should be replaced.
mbrooke
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Which brings me to my point, you still need to install an AFCI circuit breaker on the new circuit unless you comply with 210.12(A)(5 & 6).
mbrooke
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Explain:thumbsup:
Read the code.:thumbsup:
mbrooke
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I have, can you point to the exact set of words which forbids it?
Chris1971 isn't wrong.
Ponder this phrase from the section you quoted:
"......in combination with a listed branch-circuit overcurrent protective device......."
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mbrooke
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I've brought this up before, only to get shot down. Is the intent really to have an AFCI breaker? If it is then why offer an AFCI receptacle?
jaggedben
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Speak for your own business. My solar customers are expecting their project to pay for itself and then some, at least over the medium to long term. If I were to tell them that, because I refuse to install a Connecticut Electric breaker in their Zinsco or FPE, the payback time of their project is going to increase anywhere from five to forty percent, I definitely risk good business being lost.
I've even seen another company subsidize the upgrade costs to keep the solar business, because they had a policy. I couldn't believe the amount of money they were throwing away.
kwired
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It was the intent of the breaker manufacturers, then the device manufacturers wanted in on this as well.
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IMO, i is clear that a listed breaker in combination with a listed AFCI receptacle is needed. You cannot just install an afci receptacle at the first outlet as there are no overcurrent protective devices made that will satisfy this section.
I don't believe it needs to be an afci breaker but it would have to be designated somehow to show it functions with the afci receptacle. Not sure how that is suppose to protect the line side unless it is an afci type breaker
I don't believe it needs to be an afci breaker but it would have to be designated somehow to show it functions with the afci receptacle. Not sure how that is suppose to protect the line side unless it is an afci type breaker
wwhitney
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Part (d) is the key part, "The combination . . . shall be identified as meeting the requirements for a system combination–type AFCI and shall be listed as such."
What's the latest on this, has UL even developed a listing standard for complying with 210.12(A)(4)?
Cheers, Wayne
mbrooke
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But why make it so obscure? I've brought this up with electricians who say they install the outlet and not worry about the breaker. There are DIY videos by Leviton and P&S which do not tell the HO to change the breaker.
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It is a bit obscure because a standard breaker is a listed overcurrent protective device. However, why do we think after all the discussion about protecting the the wire at the source that they would allow an afci receptacle and not protect the wiring ahead of it.... One would have to assume the 2 units would have to work together. I admit I had trouble with the wording originally also.
mbrooke
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Yup, that is my point. When they say "listed OCPD" how do we know they are not referring to a standard breaker?
A standard breaker already provides AFCI protection for the first 50 feet of #14, at least a modern one. It was mentioned that newer UBI breakers come with magnetic trip.
I agree w/ this answer
V V V V V
Plus they had to come up w/something to push afci protection into older homes w/ panels that wouldn't accommodate their breakers.
And????
It is not required to change the breaker to afci when modifying an existing circuit/changing a device per 210.12(B)(2) and 406.4(D)(4),
changing the breaker is only an option, you can do an obc afci in lieu of swapping the breaker.....
Now if they are saying that you can do that w/ a new branch ckt w/out meeting 210.12(A)(2),(5) or (6), that's an issue if they are under the 2014.
I don't know why 210.12(A)(4) is around as it makes no sense to say you can do it w/out there being an approved product that meets the criteria in the first place.
mbrooke
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I agree w/ this answer
V V V V V
Plus they had to come up w/something to push afci protection into older homes w/ panels that wouldn't accommodate their breakers.
And????
It is not required to change the breaker to afci when modifying an existing circuit/changing a device per 210.12(B)(2) and 406.4(D)(4),
changing the breaker is only an option, you can do an obc afci in lieu of swapping the breaker.....
Now if they are saying that you can do that w/ a new branch ckt w/out meeting 210.12(A)(2),(5) or (6), that's an issue if they are under the 2014.
I don't know why 210.12(A)(4) is around as it makes no sense to say you can do it w/out there being an approved product that meets the criteria in the first place.
So basically what they are saying is that you are supposed to use an AFCI breaker BUT because you can't always do that lets just be vague and let people decide based on desired interpretation? :blink:
No, I don't believe they are being intentionally vague- the NEC is pretty clear about obc afci's on existing wiring/device replacements.
210.12(a)(4) deals with new installations- why would you not be able to always do afci breakers on new installations?
I suspect its just something that standards for which were never developed- only one of the code gurus can give answers about the why/why not.
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