Good Zinsco Replacements

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mbrooke said:
However IMHO in areas where Zinsco is predominant; refusing to serve a customers who have been made aware of the risk on black and white is tossing away good business.
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And if you were actually a electrical contractor or even an electrician your opinion might carry some weight with me but you are neither so ...
 
mbrooke said:
..IMHO in areas where Zinsco is predominant; refusing to serve a customers who have been made aware of the risk on black and white is tossing away good business.
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In Southern California residential fuse boxes are outside, subject to damp, or salty moisture near beaches. Most busbar alloys are forming a discolored corrosion, except for those Pushmatic / bulldog's with solid copper / bolt-on breakers, still going strong 50+ years later.

Modern plug-in busbar alloys are showing busbar corrosion outdoors within 5-10 years, and unless the service upgrade was needed for other reasons, the result is a business-as-usual disservice of up-selling unnecessary construction.

There's lots of Zinsco equipment in my area, but 100A installations are less common offenders of burnt busbars. That honor goes to any equipment using Challenger “A” Series type breakers (with the small clip on the side).

Since many electricians charge a minimum service call that includes at least an hour, there is time to properly shutdown, remove minor breakers, recondition weathered busbars, and re-assemble, especially were evidence of busbar corrosion is apparent.

Changing the main breaker may require scheduling a meter unlock, and resourceful suppliers, but the failure to remove corrosion from busbars when changing residential breakers is not a matter of legality, liability, or insurance. Service electricians can, and do replace burn-damaged busbars for a fraction of the alternative-construction costs.

When employers prohibit employees from offering repairs, those employees won't develop those skills, and unless a service upgrade is needed for other reasons, its unnecessary construction.

Most hardware stores sell Connecticut Electric or UBI Listed replacements for Zinsco equipment, with modern magnetic-trip functions included.
 
iwire said:
And if you were actually a electrical contractor or even an electrician your opinion might carry some weight with me but you are neither so ...
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I used to be. FWIW the policy my boss had was not to touch FPE and Zinsco unless it was being ripped out. Granted they made up for that lost business through commercial and other residential work, but in my eyes it was and still is lost business. I've seen enough legal to know the liability is minimal, at least in my area.
 
ramsy said:
In Southern California residential fuse boxes are outside, subject to damp, or salty moisture near beaches. Most busbar alloys are forming a discolored corrosion, except for those Pushmatic / bulldog's with solid copper / bolt-on breakers, still going strong 50+ years later.

Modern plug-in busbar alloys are showing busbar corrosion outdoors within 5-10 years, and unless the service upgrade was needed for other reasons, the result is a business-as-usual disservice of up-selling unnecessary construction.

There's lots of Zinsco equipment in my area, but 100A installations are less common offenders of burnt busbars. That honor goes to any equipment using Challenger “A” Series type breakers (with the small clip on the side).

Since many electricians charge a minimum service call that includes at least an hour, there is time to properly shutdown, remove minor breakers, recondition weathered busbars, and re-assemble, especially were evidence of busbar corrosion is apparent.

Changing the main breaker may require scheduling a meter unlock, and resourceful suppliers, but the failure to remove corrosion from busbars when changing residential breakers is not a matter of legality, liability, or insurance. Service electricians can, and do replace burn-damaged busbars for a fraction of the alternative-construction costs.

When employers prohibit employees from offering repairs, those employees won't develop those skills, and unless a service upgrade is needed for other reasons, its unnecessary construction.

Most hardware stores sell Connecticut Electric or UBI Listed replacements for Zinsco equipment, with modern magnetic-trip functions included.
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I agree, but to a point. Reconditioning a resi bus bar is not worth, and to be honest I don't even know how one would go about doing it. For me it was either use or replace entirely. Pulling off old breakers and then re-sitting them might actually further worsen breaker to bus contact leading to arcing that might otherwise not have occurred.

Also one of the down sides to only offering repair instead of replacement is that you loose a potential service change (good profit) in addition to keeping a questionable panel in service.
 
mbrooke said:
I used to be. FWIW the policy my boss had was not to touch FPE and Zinsco unless it was being ripped out. Granted they made up for that lost business through commercial and other residential work, but in my eyes it was and still is lost business. I've seen enough legal to know the liability is minimal, at least in my area.
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Minimal business is lost (if any?) when a customer doesn't want they're old obsolete fuse or breaker panel replaced.
 
mbrooke said:
I agree, but to a point. Reconditioning a resi bus bar is not worth, and to be honest I don't even know how one would go about doing it. For me it was either use or replace entirely. Pulling off old breakers and then re-sitting them might actually further worsen breaker to bus contact leading to arcing that might otherwise not have occurred.

Also one of the down sides to only offering repair instead of replacement is that you loose a potential service change (good profit) in addition to keeping a questionable panel in service.
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Can you find an approved procedure for reconditioning any panel bus bar?

Here if the painters happen to get paint on the bus, you are replacing the panel, there is no method of cleaning them that the inspectors will allow. Most you can do is maybe blow or lightly brush off dust and that is about it.
 
ramsy said:
Modern plug-in busbar alloys are showing busbar corrosion outdoors within 5-10 years, and unless the service upgrade was needed for other reasons, the result is a business-as-usual disservice of up-selling unnecessary construction.

Since many electricians charge a minimum service call that includes at least an hour, there is time to properly shutdown, remove minor breakers, recondition weathered busbars, and re-assemble, especially were evidence of busbar corrosion is apparent.

Changing the main breaker may require scheduling a meter unlock, and resourceful suppliers, but the failure to remove corrosion from busbars when changing residential breakers is not a matter of legality, liability, or insurance. Service electricians can, and do replace burn-damaged busbars for a fraction of the alternative-construction costs.....
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mbrooke said:
I agree, but to a point. Reconditioning a resi bus bar is not worth......
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kwired said:
Can you find an approved procedure for reconditioning any panel bus bar?......
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Doing a bus scrub is only opening up a whole can of worms, nevermind the fact the thread is about Zinsco...like trying to make a Pinto new again by painting it.

chris1971 said:
Minimal business is lost (if any?) when a customer doesn't want they're old obsolete fuse or breaker panel replaced.
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:thumbsup:
There are always others that need replacing. Some folks legitimately cannot afford a replacement, just as many can actually swing it and are only cheaping out....

mbrooke said:
I used to be. FWIW the policy my boss had was not to touch FPE and Zinsco unless it was being ripped out. Granted they made up for that lost business through commercial and other residential work, but in my eyes it was and still is lost business. I've seen enough legal to know the liability is minimal, at least in my area.
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A little money made (service call and marked up part) vs. having to shell out money for attys and business lost when your rep takes a hit after something happens and esp if someone gets hurt or worse- doesn't matter if you were vindicated, you still touched a panel w/ a bad history, said panel malfunctioned which burned down a house- think about that.....
 
kwired said:
Can you find an approved procedure for reconditioning any panel bus bar?
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Universal Dry Ice Blasting
https://universaldryiceblasting.com/switchgear-problem-no-problem/

Or, replace busbars for a fraction of the cost.

Or, just follow the ANSI guidelines referenced in NFPA-70 110.12, and 110.12(B) "Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections"

Discussion of ANSI, NEIS authorty in civil courts:
http://ecmweb.com/content/cleaning-installation-practices (last paragraph)
Other NEIS sources:
NECA 400-2007, Standard for Installing and Maintaining Switchboards (ANSI)
NECA 407-2015, Standard for Installing and Maintaining Panelboards
Some industry practices described by ECM Magazine article
http://ecmweb.com/content/basics-making-bus-bar-connections
 
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chris1971 said:
Minimal business is lost (if any?) when a customer doesn't want they're old obsolete fuse or breaker panel replaced.
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My point is if a customer wanted circuits added to a Zinsco or FPE and they refused an upgrade the job had to be turned down. That might not matter if you have 100 other jobs to take, but when things are slow its extra $$$ you could have made.


I still respect people's views not to touch Zinsco.
 
ramsy said:
Universal Dry Ice Blasting
https://universaldryiceblasting.com/switchgear-problem-no-problem/

Or, replace busbars for a fraction of the cost.

Or, just follow the ANSI guidelines referenced in NFPA-70 110.12, and 110.12(B) "Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections"

Discussion of ANSI, NEIS authorty in civil courts:
http://ecmweb.com/content/cleaning-installation-practices (last paragraph)
Other NEIS sources:
NECA 400-2007, Standard for Installing and Maintaining Switchboards (ANSI)
NECA 407-2015, Standard for Installing and Maintaining Panelboards
Some industry practices described by ECM Magazine article
http://ecmweb.com/content/basics-making-bus-bar-connections
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For a resi panel I have never heard or seen this being done. Its not worth the time, money and I dare say liability. :angel:
 
mbrooke said:
For a resi panel I have never heard or seen this being done. Its not worth the time, money and I dare say liability. :angel:
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Neither are you qualified to advise, nor install that Zinsco breaker replacement in violation of 110.12(B)
 
ramsy said:
Neither are you qualified to advise, nor install that Zinsco breaker replacement in violation of 110.12(B)
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I politely disagree:

(B) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections.
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars,
wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be
damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as
paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues.
There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect
safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment
such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by
corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.
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If I pull out the old breaker and the bus section looks fine I can happily put in another breaker. Now, could there be a section of bus thats already damaged beneath? Sure. But who actually pulls out every single breaker for a total bus inspection when replacing a single breaker?
 
Is this commercial or residential? I've noticed FPE commercial grade bolt on breaker panels to be ok. Not sure if that applies to Zinsco.


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