Ground Conductor Splicing

LarryFine · Dec 12, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

George, if you don't mind...

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Part 1. The area under "Required Connection" is the portion of the electrode that we are required to bond to, per the definition detailed in the first sentence of 250.52(A)(1).

I would use the wording: "The area under "Required Connection" is the portion of the electrode that we are required to bond for, not to, if we wish this pipe to qualify as an electrode.

Part 2. The area under the "?" is not discussed in code. It is commonly perceived that we may connect our GEC in this location, but it is not expressly permitted.

No, to use the piping as an electrode, this is where we're required to make the connection. It is discussed in code.

Part 3. The area under "Mandatory: No Connection" is expressly forbidden for GEC connections, by the second sentence of 250.52(A)(1).

Again, bonding anywhere on the piping is permitted, but not if we wish the piping to do sevre as an electrode.

I'll pass on the UFER discussion for now.

George Stolz · Dec 12, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by charlie b:
[QB] I also notice that there is some confusion regarding what to do with a concrete encased electrode that consists of 20 feet of encased rebar with some additional length of rebar sticking out of the concrete.

My hope is that if we focus on as few variations as possible, the discussion will be easier for others to follow and participate in. For that reason alone, I wish to avoid discussion of any electrodes besides Ufer and Metallic Water Pipe; I wish to solely discuss the "rebar" method of Ufer construction; and....

The issue is what to call, and how to treat, the part of rebar sticking out of the concrete. Is it part of the electrode? Is it a GEC?

I wish to solely focus on all components of the Ufer as a grounding electrode only.

The base disagreement in this debate is that I view the exposed rebar as a viable portion of the electrode, and Bob does not.

George Stolz · Dec 12, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by LarryFine:
George, if you don't mind...

Not one little bit! Chime in!

I would use the wording: "The area under "Required Connection" is the portion of the electrode that we are required to bond for, not to, if we wish this pipe to qualify as an electrode.

No, Larry, this is fundamental to the discussion: Bob believes that the GEC must bond to the defined portion of an electrode.

Another nit-pick: The electrode is an electrode. It is an electrode without a GEC attached to it. It's an electrode in violation of 250.50 without a GEC attached to it. The presence of an electrode is what drives us to connect a GEC to it.

Your statement had a trace of "it's not an electrode until it's tied in" to it.

Hold the first sentence in your left hand. That's part 1.
Hold the second sentence in your right hand. That's part 3.

There's a gap in the middle. The second sentence is a mandatory rule (Remember 90.5) stopping us from action after 5'. There is no requirement as to where to make the connection.

We see a rule stopping us after 5', and assume permission to go up to that 5' mark. Do you see permission? No. It's assumed.

Again, bonding anywhere on the piping is permitted, but not if we wish the piping to do sevre as an electrode.

Right - for the sake of clarity, we're only behaving as though the only two things in the world is an electrode, and the desire to connect a GEC to it in any way permissible.

pierre · Dec 12, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

George
What did you do in your first life???

George Stolz · Dec 12, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Okay, another question, brought up by my fiance:

She has got to be Ms. Right. I talked to my wife about this on the way into town the other day, and she nearly crashed the car out of sudden unsuppressable boredom.

George Stolz · Dec 12, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by pierre:
George
What did you do in your first life???

I'm still waiting for my first life.

don_resqcapt19 · Dec 12, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Pierre,

We can use metallic enclosures as bonding jumpers/conductors, why not the rebar?

In those cases, the code specifies that they are conductors. I have no idea what a section of rebar that is sticking out of the concrete is as far as the NEC is concerned, but I don't think that it is a GEC or a bonding jumper.
Don

iwire · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Would the same apply to a driven ground rod? Is the part sticking out of the dirt an electrode or a GEC?

Please lets not expand the topic until we settle the first question, that is exactly why I asked Charlie to get in on this.

Charlie has a knack of pinning down the question.

But to answer your question Larry, no my view is all about a concrete encased electrode.

iwire · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by georgestolz:
The "continuously underground" comment was indeed an error, I should have written "electrically continuous while underground".

George that is still not what it says.

It is underground for a minimum of 10' and electrically continuous to the point of connection

After the 'and' there is no underground requirement.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Part 1. The area under "Required Connection" is the portion of the electrode that we are required to bond to, per the definition detailed in the first sentence of 250.52(A)(1).

Incorrect, this part of 250.52(A)(1)

"and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors"

expressly permits the connection to be somewhere other than underground.

I have to get to work, I will be back later.

[ December 13, 2005, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

George Stolz · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by georgestolz:
"electrically continuous while underground".

Click to expand...

George that is still not what it says.

It is underground for a minimum of 10' and electrically continuous to the point of connection

After the 'and' there is no underground requirement.

These two statements are to accomplish the same end:

3. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effec-tive means.
1. electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe)

It is underground for a minimum of 10' and electrically continuous to the point of connection

You are saying that the continuous statement effectively expands the length of the GE to the outside of dirt.

I don't see how to read it that way. If I am "skinny, and tall to the top of my head" does not mean that part of me is permitted to be fat above my head. Once you've reached the top of my head, you're at the end of me.

Incorrect, this part of 250.52(A)(1)

"and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors"

expressly permits the connection to be somewhere other than underground.

No, it expressly requires the electrode to be electrically continuous to the point of connection of the GEC. In other words, no part of the water pipe electrode shall depend on dirt or PVC to meet the 10' requirement.

If the water pipe were metallic for 20' up to 1' away from the building, and then changed to PVC to penetrate the foundation, and then switched back to metallic after 2', then we could either

1. attach our GEC to the water pipe outside, and bond the interior per 250.104 by some other means
2. make the electrode continuous to the interior, and connect our GEC to the interior,
3. State that no qualifying electrode defined under 250.52(A)(1) existed, and not include it in the GES.

It is not express permission to connect inside, that's not correct.

IMO.

charlie b · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

One quick question about my earlier description of "CASE 1": Is it even possible? To save you from looking back for it, here is the situation: Take a #4 copper wire that is 30 feet long. Dig a trench 20 feet long, insert 20 feet of the wire, and pour 2 inches of concrete. Connect the other end of the wire to the proper point in the service enclosure.

Multiple Choice Question:

Choice A: Is the entire 30 feet an "electrode," so that there is no GEC?

Choice B: Is the entire 30 feet a GEC, so that there is no an "electrode"?

Choice C: Is the 20 feet that is concrete-encased an "electrode," so that the remaining 10 feet is a GEC?

Choice D: Is this not a legal installation?

Choice E: Should I come back after I have had my morning coffee?

charlie b · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Originally posted by iwire:
(From Bob) . . . this part of 250.52(A)(1)

"and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors"

Click to expand...

. . . expressly permits the connection to be somewhere other than underground.

Click to expand...

(From George) It is not express permission to connect inside, that's not correct.

George, I have to disagree with you on this point. There is permission to connect inside the building. That permission comes from the sentence immediately following the one quoted above.

250.52(A)(1): Interior metal water piping located more than 5 ft from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as part of the grounding electrode system.

That tells me that interior metal water piping located less than or equal to 5 ft from the point of entrance to the building may be used as part of the grounding electrode system. Otherwise, they would not have included an explicit prohibition of using the rest of the pipe as part of the GES.

The phrase "Grounding Electrode System" is created in 250.50. It means all available electrodes, and it means nothing other than electrodes. The electrodes are connected together with bonding wires, but the GES itself is nothing but a set of electrodes. That tells us that if an item is part of the GES, it must necessarily be an electrode. That, in turn, means that the section of pipe up to 5 feet from the point of entrance to the building is still part of the electrode.

OK. I'll grant that the NEC does not explicitly say we have permission to connect a GEC to the first 5 feet of water pipe. But it does tell us that that first 5 feet is part of the electrode. Since it is part of the electrode, we can connect a GEC to it. That is the source of our "permission" to connect inside the building.

charlie b · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

OK, I've finished my morning coffee, and I'm ready to state my opinion. Fundamentally, I agree with George's view. Sorry, Bob.

It is my view that an electrode does not come to an end until you connect something to it. Examples:

An "electrode" that consists of an underground water pipe includes all of the underground pipe from here to Kansas, or until it is no longer "electrically continuous," and it includes (i.e., the "electrode" includes) the section of pipe inside the building up to the point of connection (which must not be more than five feet from the wall).

An "electrode" that consists of a series of rebar sections that are connected to each other by steel tie wires, and that are encased in the concrete foundation or slab for a total distance of at least 20 feet, includes all of the rebar that is within the concrete, and it includes (i.e., the "electrode" includes) any short section of rebar that stubs up out of the concrete for the purpose of giving us something to connect to.

An "electrode" that consists of a 10 foot rod that is pounded 9.5 feet into the dirt includes the 9.5 foot section in the dirt, and it includes (i.e., the "electrode" includes) the 6 inch section that is above the dirt and that gives us something to connect to. (Aside: I don't recall if this is legal, but it's just an example of what I believe is included in the term "electrode.")

An "electrode" that consists of #4 bare copper includes all of the wire that is within the concrete, and it includes (i.e., the "electrode" includes) any short section of wire that stubs up out of the concrete for the purpose of giving us something to connect to.

If there is 20 or more feet of #4 copper wire encased in concrete, and if there is a separate wire bonded to the first by some allowable means, with that connection taking place within the concrete, then the "electrode" consists of the first wire, and the second wire is a GEC or bonding jumper, depending on where its other end is connected.

My basis is that once you have 20 or more feet of wire encased in concrete, you have an "electrode." If part of that electrode is not concrete-encased, if part of it stubs out of the concrete, then the entire thing is still an electrode. I look at the definition of "Grounding Electrode" in Article 100, and I see that it is a device that establishes an electrical connection to earth. There can be no electrical connection to earth without a place to connect a wire. So I conclude that the "electrode" includes the place to which a wire can be connected, even if that place is not in dirt, or not in concrete.

By the way, for the record, I do not know the answer to the multiple choice question that I posted above. My guess is that it is not legal (i.e., "choice D").

gndrod · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

iwire (Bob), May I respectfully ask on what planet this resi is being wired? And what sense of practical economics is being applied for safe and reliable methods of 'bonding'? George has demonstrated more common sense than your interpretation of what is underground. (Referring to popularity down at the plumbers local, you would be handed a copy of the UPC before making quick electrical references to the NEC.)
This thread has become a hilarious pissing contest rather than relevant agreement to the question originally posted. For a purposeful answer related to new construction dwelling construction, a lot of cpvc is being installed to the street. With that said, I would cover all bets that would happen and go with a UFER electrode or other [250.53] methods for selecting a primary "earthed" electrode.

Being involved is important so I would like to help the OP with a realistic solution. It is the AHJ's call on the GEC regardless of the the electrode connection being encased or stubbed up. In a lot of areas the AHJ will require a visual access for GEC bonding to the electrode. The answer to exothermically bond over using a compression bond is far superior. Ask the AHJ.

Merry Xmas.
rbj, Seattle

gndrod · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Ps. The same goes for commercial.

iwire · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by gndrod:
This thread has become a hilarious pissing contest rather than relevant agreement to the question originally posted.

If you have nothing intelligent to add maybe you should keep you hands at you side. :roll:

iwire · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Charlie I agree with you points about the water pipe and the rod. (I never had an issue with those items)

I can not agree about the concrete encased electrode.

So be it, I may put in a proposal on this one.

iwire · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by charlie b:
Fundamentally, I agree with George's view. Sorry, Bob.

Charlie no need to be sorry, I asked for your opinion as I knew you would give it real consideration before answering.

Obviously I was hoping you would see it my way but always knew it could go either way.

I thank you for jumping in.

Bob

George Stolz · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Originally posted by charlie b:
Take a #4 copper wire that is 30 feet long. Dig a trench 20 feet long, insert 20 feet of the wire, and pour 2 inches of concrete. Connect the other end of the wire to the proper point in the service enclosure.

Multiple Choice Question:


Choice A: Is the entire 30 feet an "electrode," so that there is no GEC?



Choice B: Is the entire 30 feet a GEC, so that there is no an "electrode"?



Choice C: Is the 20 feet that is concrete-encased an "electrode," so that the remaining 10 feet is a GEC?



Choice D: Is this not a legal installation?



Choice E: Should I come back after I have had my morning coffee?

Choice F: It is not a legal electrode, but it is not illegal to attach to the service.

You would need a shade over four inches of concrete, and the #4 would need to be supported so that there is 2" of concrete below the conductor as well.

George Stolz · Dec 13, 2005

Re: Ground Conductor Splicing

Let me start by saying that your response was well considered, and I appreciate you taking the time to write your opinion as much as Bob does. (Also, it's comforting to know that I'm not 100% unjustified 100% of the time when I step out off the deep end like this. I believe this thread has brought me up to almost 50%.

[ December 13, 2005, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

Ground Conductor Splicing

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA

Moderator

Moderator

Senior Member

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Senior Member

Senior Member

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator