Ground rod jumper?

[infinity]

Jaggedben brings up an interesting scenario. We tend to think that where a CEE is present in a structure then it must be used as part of the GES. But what if the GES already has other qualified electrodes and the CEE is solely connected to a machine as the auxillary electrode?

 

[Jaybone812]

Can someone explain the difference between an auxiliary electrode and a supplemental electrode. When would the distinction be made?

An auxiliary grounding electrode connections are not required and are not required to comply with 250.50 or 250.53(c) the conductor that connects to an auxiliary electrode does not need to comply with 250.66 when being sized either , and the conductor that connects to a auxiliary grounding electrode does not connect to the grounded service conductor because it has no place in the grounding electrode system . It connects to the equipment grounding conductors . Electrodes that are permitted for grounding or “grounding electrodes “ get bonded together to form a grounding electrode system and a grounding electrode conductor connects to the grounded service conductor . All available electrodes that are permitted for grounding must be bonded together to become part of the grounding electrode system. A supplemental grounding electrode is just what it sounds like . Read 250.53(a)(2)


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[Jaybone812]

Jaggedben brings up an interesting scenario. We tend to think that where a CEE is present in a structure then it must be used as part of the GES. But what if the GES already has other qualified electrodes and the CEE is solely connected to a machine as the auxillary electrode?

If a CEE is available and it’s a true CEE making direct contact with the earth then it needs to be a part of the grounding electrode system . All available electrodes permitted for grounding need to be bonded together as and connected to the grounded service conductor to form the GES . An example of an auxiliary grounding electrode is adding a ground rod for a non separately Derived system generator or adding a ground rod at a light pole . It’s allowed but not required at all and the size of the conductor that connects to the auxiliary electrode is up to you and that conductor connects to the equipment grounding conductors


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[infinity]

If a CEE is available and it’s a true CEE making direct contact with the earth then it needs to be a part of the grounding electrode system . All available electrodes permitted for grounding need to be bonded together as and connected to the grounded service conductor to form the GES

So if I install two ground rods as an auxiliary electrode they are not require to be connected to the GES but a CEE as an auxiliary electrode is required? Where does it say that only ground rods can be auxiliary electrodes?

 

[Jaybone812]

So if I install two ground rods as an auxiliary electrode they are not require to be connected to the GES but a CEE as an auxiliary electrode is required? Where does it say that only ground rods can be auxiliary electrodes?

250.50 says any that electrode that’s listed in 250.52(a)(1-7) available at a building or structure must be bonded together to form the GES . A concrete encased electrode is 250.52(a)(3) so if a CEE is available on a new build it must be tied into the GES .


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[Jaybone812]

So if I install two ground rods as an auxiliary electrode they are not require to be connected to the GES but a CEE as an auxiliary electrode is required? Where does it say that only ground rods can be auxiliary electrodes?

A CEE doesn’t need to be supplemented so why would you choose to not include it into the GES if you could ?


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[Jaybone812]

So if I install two ground rods as an auxiliary electrode they are not require to be connected to the GES but a CEE as an auxiliary electrode is required? Where does it say that only ground rods can be auxiliary electrodes?

And if a CEE is available then it can’t be used a an auxiliary grounding electrode because it must be a part of the GES which is connected to the grounded service conductor auxiliary grounding electrodes connect to equipment grounding conductors


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[infinity]

A CEE doesn’t need to be supplemented so why would you choose to not include it into the GES if you could ?


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That wasn't the question that jaggedben asked. Basically he said if there is already other electrodes and a GES why can't you use the CEE solely for the auxiliary electrode?

Also you've quoted 250.52(A) for the seven different electrodes. Both ground rods and the CEE are on the list so why if they're both present is what you stated earlier below allowed but using the CEE as the auxiliary isn't?

An example of an auxiliary grounding electrode is adding a ground rod for a non separately Derived system generator or adding a ground rod at a light pole .

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.

 

[Jaybone812]

That wasn't the question that jaggedben asked. Basically he said if there is already other electrodes and a GES why can't you use the CEE solely for the auxiliary electrode?

Also you've quoted 250.52(A) for the seven different electrodes. Both ground rods and the CEE are on the list so why if they're both present is what you stated earlier below allowed but using the CEE as the auxiliary isn't?

Because a ground rod is not present at a building or structure until we physically add it . A CEE is is in direct contact with the earth and the rebar is part of the foundation . 250.50. Says if if any one of 250.52(a)(1-7) are present they must be tied into the GES then goes on to say if none of the electrodes listed in (a)(1-7) exist at the building, key word being “exist” then one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(a)(4-8) shall be installed and used . 250.52(a)(5) is rod and pipe electrodes . A ground rod is not present until we install it if necessary, a CEE is present in the foundation as an available electrode that’s permitted for grounding .


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[Jaybone812]

That wasn't the question that jaggedben asked. Basically he said if there is already other electrodes and a GES why can't you use the CEE solely for the auxiliary electrode?

Also you've quoted 250.52(A) for the seven different electrodes. Both ground rods and the CEE are on the list so why if they're both present is what you stated earlier below allowed but using the CEE as the auxiliary isn't?

It’s the same as if a cold water pipe qualified as an electrode permitted for grounding it must be tied into the GES , a CEE is no different in that aspect


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[LarryFine]

All qualifying electrodes automatically become part of the GES if they're compliantly connected (to?).

 

[Jaybone812]

All qualifying electrodes automatically become part of the GES if they're compliantly connected.

Correct and all electrodes that qualify as grounding electrodes present at a structure or building shall be bonded together to form the GES . 250.50 says if its present and qualifies it must be tied into the GES . He’s trying to say that if a CEE that’s in direct contact with the earth is present , then it’s not required to be a part of the GES and instead could be used as a auxiliary grounding electrode . And that’s not true


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[infinity]

It’s the same as if a cold water pipe qualified as an electrode permitted for grounding it must be tied into the GES , a CEE is no different in that aspect

So if there is no rebar in the footing can one install 20' of #4 copper to create a CEE and use that only for an auxiliary electrode?

 

[Jaybone812]

So if there is no rebar in the footing can one install 20' of #4 copper to create a CEE and use that only for an auxiliary electrode?

If it’s not present already why would you ever go through the trouble of cutting into the foundation to connect to a piece of rebar . Why wouldn’t you just drop a rod


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[Jaybone812]

So if there is no rebar in the footing can one install 20' of #4 copper to create a CEE and use that only for an auxiliary electrode?

And the CEE is not available on a new build there’s probably a reason like there’s a vapor barrier present so the rebar is not in direct contact with the earth so it would be a useless connection


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[Jaybone812]

All qualifying electrodes automatically become part of the GES if they're compliantly connected (to?).

(To?) the grounded service conductor !


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[jaggedben]

IMO you cannot simply call an electrode an auxiliary electrode and it becomes one, it would need to physically wired as one to be one as per 250.54. Maybe that's what you're saying?

Yeah something like that. Like, if you have an extra (more than NEC required) unconnected electrode and are trying to fulfill the requirement to connect all electrodes 'that are present' but you connect the electrode per 240.54 to the nearest random equipment and call it auxiliary then where is the code violation? Mind you I would probably never do that but the code wording seems to allow it and 250.54 is completely agnostic about the type of electrode.

 

[jaggedben]

Jaggedben brings up an interesting scenario. We tend to think that where a CEE is present in a structure then it must be used as part of the GES. But what if the GES already has other qualified electrodes and the CEE is solely connected to a machine as the auxillary electrode?

Often there is a local rule that requires installing a CEE in new construction and if you didn't use it as part of the GES you'd be in violation of that local rule. And I'm not advocating people declare a CEE auxiliary, in fact I think auxiliary electrodes are dumb. But I do think the NEC is not actually explicit in prohibiting that.

 

[Jaybone812]

Yeah something like that. Like, if you have an extra (more than NEC required) unconnected electrode and are trying to fulfill the requirement to connect all electrodes 'that are present' but you connect the electrode per 240.54 to the nearest random equipment then where is the code violation? Mind you I would probably never do that but the code wording seems to allow it and 250.54 is completely agnostic about the type of electrode.

The violation is auxiliary grounding electrodes connect to the equipment grounding conductor. If an electrode is present at the building and it qualifies as an electrode permitted for grounding it must connect tie into the GES which ultimately connects to the grounded service conductor by way of the gec .an auxiliary grounding electrode is not allowed to connect to the grounded conductor . So by leaving it out you did not bond all the available electrodes together which violates 250.50


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[jaggedben]

The violation is auxiliary grounding electrodes connect to the equipment grounding conductor.

That is not a violation. That is explicitly what 250.54 allows.

If an electrode is present at the building and it qualifies as an electrode permitted for grounding it must connect tie into the GES which ultimately connects to the grounded service conductor by way of the gec .

Unless it's an auxiliary electrode which 250.54 explicitly says does not have to meet the requirements of 250.50.

an auxiliary grounding electrode is not allowed to connect to the grounded conductor . So by leaving it out you did not bond all the available electrodes together which violates 250.50

See previous response.