Ground up or down?

charlie b · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Originally posted by paul32: The chicken was first. God made the first animals, not eggs.

I do not wish to begin a holy war, and I will delete this thread if we start heading that way. But I beg leave to disagree. It is my belief (and I am free to believe as I choose) that the act of creation did not take place in what would be measured in today's terms as "six days." I'll post my "Eternal Truth" (no religious connotations are intended in that phrase) separately. But my short version is "Neither the chicken nor the egg came first. That which was called into existence at the very beginning did not resemble what we now call a 'chicken,' nor did it resemble what we now call an 'egg.' "

Of course there is a sound. A sound is waves in the air, present even if nobody hears it.

This is very close to the correct answer. It contains the element that was missing in Larry's and 69Boss' earlier answer. It contains a definition of "sound." If we were to accept Paul's definition, then logic forces us to agree with his answer. If we elect to apply a different definition of "sound," we may find a different answer. So the "Eternal Truth" is, "Please define 'sound,' and then I will say 'yes' or 'no.' "

"Who is buried in Grant's tomb?" (I know the answer but won't say right now)

I also know that one, for I've seen the tombstone. I too will hold off on giving away the answer. But I cannot resist giving a hint: Look for the punctuation error!

iwire · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

To me a tree falling without an ear or other receiver to hear it is silent.

The waves in the air are just waves until interpreted as sound.

Kind of like a radio wave, without a receiver it is nothing.

OK enough 'deep thoughts'

jimwalker · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

"Who is buried in Grant's tomb?"
I won't tell either

But yes there is noise even if not heard.

69boss302 · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

-Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing.

-Transmitted vibrations of any frequency.

-The sensation stimulated in the organs of hearing by such vibrations in the air or other medium.

-Such sensations considered as a group.

OK Charlie, these are the definitions of sound that I got out of a dictionary. Now if as this says if sound is something that is merely capable of being detected by the human ear then you have sound.

paul32 · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Originally posted by charlie b:
Look for the punctuation error!

Hmm. We must have different answers, as that makes no sense with mine.

So I'll take a stab at yours. It should be Grants' tomb, as it contains both Grant and his wife.

However that is still not correct!

As for the chicken and the egg, there will be no correct answer as it is philosophical and depends on one's beliefs. Evolution is a religion since it also takes faith to accept as there is no proof.

steve66 · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Evolution is a religion since it also takes faith to accept as there is no proof.

No proof?? Whatever.

steve66 · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

An easier question than Charlie's:

If a plane crashes on the border between Canada and the United States, which country do you bury the survivors in?

Steve

ryan_618 · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Originally posted by steve66:
An easier question than Charlie's:

If a plane crashes on the border between Canada and the United States, which country do you bury the survivors in?

Steve

Wherever the next of kin wants? Where ever they were born?

roger · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Ryan, surely the next of kin don't dislike them that much.

Roger

LawnGuyLandSparky · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Originally posted by steve66:
An easier question than Charlie's:

If a plane crashes on the border between Canada and the United States, which country do you bury the survivors in?

Steve

Why would you bury survivors?

charlie b · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Originally posted by 69boss302: -The sensation stimulated in the organs of hearing by such vibrations in the air or other medium.

Applying this definition alone, a falling tree makes no sound if there are no "organs of hearing" to be stimulated by the vibrations. That is what I mean by saying you need to communicate clearly with the person on the other end of the discussion. First you both need to agree with a definition of "sound." Once that happens, answering the question becomes a trivial exercise. Getting the agreement on the use of terms is the non-trivial exercise.

charlie b · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Originally posted by paul32: It should be Grants' tomb, as it contains both Grant and his wife. However that is still not correct!

I agree. And I will admit to having misspoken in my first statement on this side-topic. I did not, in fact, see the tombstone. OK. That's another hint.

charlie b · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Here is the "Eternal Truth" behind the question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" The answer is, (drum roll please):

That is the wrong question!

We need to acknowledge that there is more than one chicken on the planet, and that there is more than one egg. We cannot speak about "the chicken," nor can we speak about "the egg." Rather, we must speak about "this chicken" or "that egg." So,

Bring me a chicken, and ask, "Which came first, this chicken or an egg?" I will say that an egg was first called into being, and this chicken grew from that egg.

Bring me an egg (be sure it is a chicken egg), and ask, "Which came first, this egg or a chicken." I will say that a chicken was first called into being, and this egg grew within that chicken.

But you object that this is circular reasoning, that this reasoning can flip back and forth like a metronome without end, that I have not given you any eternal truths.

To that I reply: Let us look upon this chicken. Let us ponder the egg from which it was hatched. Then let us ponder the chicken that laid that egg. Then let us ponder the egg that preceded that chicken, then the chicken that preceded that egg. Finally, let us realize that this process cannot be traced back forever. There was a time during which neither chicken nor egg existed.

Once our thoughts have gone back far enough into the past, perhaps a mere 20,000 years or so, we will observe that the animal that existed at that time does not greatly resemble the animal that we now call "chicken." Go back another 200,000 years, and the animal will resemble the present day chicken to an even lesser degree. Nothing that we could find 10,000,000 years in the past would be recognizable as the ancestor of today's chicken.

Therefore, the simple, "eternal, truth," is this: "Neither the chicken nor the egg was first."

al hildenbrand · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

The history of the Universe, in one sentence:

Take a really big cloud of hydrogen and let it be.

69boss302 · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Originally posted by charlie b:
Getting the agreement on the use of terms is the non-trivial exercise.

And that is the hardest aspect of any form of communication! Especially when the first thing you need to define is agreement. That term in itself leads to arguments.

George Stolz · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Originally posted by charlie b:
Once our thoughts have gone back far enough into the past, perhaps a mere 20,000 years or so, we will observe that the animal that existed at that time does not greatly resemble the animal that we now call "chicken."

Strangely, the predator that later consumed this creature somewhat paradoxically admitted, "It tasted like chicken."

iwire · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Originally posted by roger:
Ryan, surely the next of kin don't dislike them that much.

steve66 · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Obviously Roger and LawnGuy know the correct answer. I'm sure Ryan has noticed by now also. But he points out another thing: why would the location of the crash have anything to do with where they bury anyone???

Steve

paul32 · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Nobody has the answer for the Grant's tomb question? The correct answer is not Grant, and not Grant and his wife. Jim, what is your answer?

roger · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Ground up or down?

Nobody is buried in Grant's Tomb.

Roger

Ground up or down?

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