Having an issue with inspector

[ramsy]

Did find this, for what it's worth.

Tulsa nailed it

Nameplate Specifies Overcurrent Protective Device Per UL 1995, the HVAC nameplate can specify the type of overcurrent protective device that must be used. When the nameplate does not specify the type overcurrent device, then either a circuit breaker or fuse is permitted. A typical nameplate will show the "Maximum Size Fuse" or "Maximum Size Fuse or HACR Type Breaker." If only fuses are specified on the nameplate, then fuse protection must be present in accordance with the label. If a HACR type breaker is allowed, then the circuit breaker must be marked "HACR."

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It does say that ( https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/EHCMG_AG.pdf ), in particular (Section 17 in part):



However, I find no corresponding language in UL 1995, and the options listed above don't even correspond with those listed in UL 1995 44.3(i). As the guide does not provide references or footnotes, I don't see the basis for the above statement.

Now the guide may just be saying "of course 44.3(i) gives you different labeling options, as an opportunity for the manufacturer to provide instructions to the user." Which obviously makes some sense, although the guide language implies fuses are always OK, which is not what the plain meaning of "MAX CKT BKR" would be.

But if none of the testing is any different based on what OCPD labeling was chosen, and if the manufacturer's installation instructions contradict the nameplate, I see no reason to elevate the choice on the nameplate over the choice in the instructions.

If anyone can point to something in UL 1995 I've overlooked, that would be very welcome.

Cheers, Wayne

I am going to take a UL Marking Guide as a 110.3(B) instruction every time.

 

[wwhitney]

I am going to take a UL Marking Guide as a 110.3(B) instruction every time.

Over the manufacturer's more specific instructions? That seems odd to take the more general source over the more specific source.

Now if the manufacturer's instructions aren't available at the time of inspection, and all you have is the nameplate, that's plausible.

Cheers ,Wayne

 

[ggunn]

I am going to take a UL Marking Guide as a 110.3(B) instruction every time.

If you are the inspector, you are of course within your rights to do that. If you are an installer and an inspector chooses to rule that the language in the instructions is the determinant, also of course you will have to comply.

 

[ramsy]

I see no reason to elevate the choice on the nameplate over the choice in the instructions.

Code wants nameplate data for sizing wire, OCP, & appliance loads, since instructions are not standardized for sizing equipment, and therefor subordinate to nameplate.

 

[wwhitney]

Code wants nameplate data for sizing wire, OCP, & appliance loads, since instructions are not standardized for sizing equipment, and therefor subordinate to nameplate.

If you can show me a section in Article 440 that says the OCPD type used must match the equipment nameplate, then I'll agree with the above. Maybe I missed it.

Personally, I'm doubtful that with the proliferation of overseas products imported to the US, the manufacturers are always so careful with their nameplate wording and aren't just sometimes using the word "fuse" as a synonym for OCPD, without any further thought. Particularly when the installation instructions say breakers are OK.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ramsy]

If you can show me a section

More concerned with inspectors than winning arguments with engineers.

 

[LarryFine]

Over the manufacturer's more specific instructions? That seems odd to take the more general source over the more specific source.

To me, the label on the piece of equipment I'm wiring is more specific than a booklet that may be generic and included with who-know-how-many different models.

 

[ggunn]

More concerned with inspectors than winning arguments with engineers.

This. The best thing to do, IMO, is to ask the inspector ahead of time and install it the way that will pass his inspection.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

I downloaded this
It is dated 2016. So I do not if it is the current document.


Pics from document.

Bummer you have to change however on this one I have to agree with AHJ.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Over the manufacturer's more specific instructions? That seems odd to take the more general source over the more specific source.

Now if the manufacturer's instructions aren't available at the time of inspection, and all you have is the nameplate, that's plausible.

Cheers ,Wayne

Always, as the manufacturer's instructions are not reviewed by anyone. They can write anything they want to with no relevance to any technical facts. How hard would it be for them to do it correctly and list more than one type of OCPD on the nameplate?

 

[Charged]

I think I would see if I had a manufacturer rep that could provide a letter from manufacturer indicating the model/serial number of the unit and that it’s acceptable to be provided with cb protection in lieu of fuse.

May not be possible but I think an inspector would accept that to be able to file with the project. I changed sides on this debate from the first thread to the last. Good info

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If you can show me a section in Article 440 that says the OCPD type used must match the equipment nameplate, then I'll agree with the above. Maybe I missed it.

Personally, I'm doubtful that with the proliferation of overseas products imported to the US, the manufacturers are always so careful with their nameplate wording and aren't just sometimes using the word "fuse" as a synonym for OCPD, without any further thought. Particularly when the installation instructions say breakers are OK.

Cheers, Wayne

Then they really have no business selling products in a market that they do not understand.

 

[Fred B]

Several different options nameplate specifying different overcurrent protection types. Why, if not limiting it for some reason?
Lists Fuse or ckt breaker

List HACR breaker only

Dual Element fuse or circuit breaker

 

[Fred B]

440.21 General.
Part III specifies devices intended to protect the branch-circuit conductors, control apparatus, and motors in circuits supplying hermetic refrigerant motor-compressors against overcurrent due to short circuits and ground faults. They are in addition to or amendatory of Article 240.

ENHANCED CONTENT
Where an air conditioner is listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory with a nameplate that reads “maximum fuse size,” the listing restricts the use of the unit to fuse protection only and does not cover its use with circuit breakers. If the air conditioner has been evaluated for both fuses and circuit breakers, it is marked to indicate that both types of protective devices are acceptable. Molded-case circuit breakers, evaluated to UL 489, Molded-Case Circuit Breakers, Molded-Case Switches and Circuit-Breaker Enclosures, are certified for group motor protection in accordance with 430.53. The equipment covered by Article 440 quite often consists of hermetic refrigerant motors plus other types of motors, equipment, and controls. If supplemental overcurrent protection is provided within the heating, air conditioning, and refrigeration (HACR) equipment control panel, the manufacturer will have marked the equipment with specific information on the type of branch-circuit overcurrent protective device that can be used on the line side of the HACR unit in order to provide the necessary level of short-circuit and ground-fault protection for the equipment and controls internal to the HACR unit.

Section 110.3(B) requires listed equipment to be installed and used in accordance with instructions included in the listing. In the case of air-conditioning equipment, it is important to carefully read the nameplate so that the correct type of short-circuit, ground-fault protective device is selected.

 

[mtnelect]

I always install a fused disconnect at the condensing unit(s) ... it's a faster acting and safer than a non fused disconnect. With "Daikin" the installation manual gives you a choice of HACR rated breaker or fused. Solution ... don't argue with the inspector, just change it out !

 

[ramsy]

The best thing to do, IMO, is to ask the inspector ahead of time and install it the way that will pass his inspection.

AHJ's respond to that request by posting this placard with the Red Tag.

 

[ggunn]

Always, as the manufacturer's instructions are not reviewed by anyone. They can write anything they want to with no relevance to any technical facts. How hard would it be for them to do it correctly and list more than one type of OCPD on the nameplate?

To state the obvious, whoever wrote the installation instructions and who designed the nameplate are probably not the same people, and each of them may not have any idea what the other has written.

 

[Little Bill]

I seen many a cut sheet/mfg instructions that say, "see nameplate for actual ratings or requirements" or something similar.

 

[Charged]

I think some of the counter points to the do it per nameplate argument are still relevant. Like if a piece of kitchen equipment says amps: 20, and is provided with a Nema 5-20 cord and plug are you treating the 20a like it’s the fla and sizing everything accordingly ? I think that hypothetical happens quite a bit