Having an issue with inspector

[don_resqcapt19]

To state the obvious, whoever wrote the installation instructions and who designed the nameplate are probably not the same people, and each of them may not have any idea what the other has written.

Not my problem. The rules are clear as to what the markings on the nameplate mean. If they want to sell product here, they need to learn how things work here.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I think some of the counter points to the do it per nameplate argument are still relevant. Like if a piece of kitchen equipment says amps: 20, and is provided with a Nema 5-20 cord and plug are you treating the 20a like it’s the fla and sizing everything accordingly ? I think that hypothetical happens quite a bit

Based on the rules in Article 422, I would have to provide 20 amp branch circuit conductors for that appliance, but would not have to provide a 20 amp OCPD unless the nameplate specified the rating of the OCPD.

 

[LarryFine]

Based on the rules in Article 422, I would have to provide 20 amp branch circuit conductors for that appliance, but would not have to provide a 20 amp OCPD unless the nameplate specified the rating of the OCPD.

And the type.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

And the type.

Have never seen the type of OCPD specified on anything other that air conditioning equipment that has a hermetic refrigerant motor-compressor.

 

[tortuga]

I agree with Wane & David that its probably sloppy label. Contact the manufacturer and ask them to send you a updated sticker that says max fuse or 'breaker'.
If they say yes or no then you got your answer from the manufacturer.
The reason this will work is there is no code requirement that HVAC equipment be 'UL listed' as complex commercial / industrial units can be field assembled and custom marked by the HVAC company who then is the 'manufacturer'.

 

[GeorgeB]

Dual Element fuse or circuit breaker
View attachment 2568122

I'm going to be a horse's behind ... I think this York label requires BOTH a fuse and breaker; neither can be a wire. Do I think that's the intent? ABSOLUTELY not, but it doesn't say OR.

And another 5kA withstand max ... on a 200 amp circuit with 300 amp OCP at 208V? I hope the compressor isn't near the source.

 

[Fred B]

I'm going to be a horse's behind ... I think this York label requires BOTH a fuse and breaker; neither can be a wire. Do I think that's the intent? ABSOLUTELY not, but it doesn't say OR.

And another 5kA withstand max ... on a 200 amp circuit with 300 amp OCP at 208V? I hope the compressor isn't near the source.

It also doesn't say "AND"

 

[ggunn]

It also doesn't say "AND"

What is the meaning of the word "is"?

 

[GoldDigger]

What is the meaning of the word "is"?

That is self referential, and therefore not a sound question. Clinton should have just said "It all depends on the meaning of the word is." and left it at that.

 

[Treg the electrician]

thanks for all the feedback on this i learned a lot. I will comply with the inspector i just wanted to run this through the forum the way you guys break stuff down is awsome thanks again!

 

[kwired]

I would think that, generally speaking, fuses open more quickly for motor protection.

I would think they usually open more quickly in short circuit/ground fault conditions. Motor starting or overloading- really depends on the type of fuse and it's trip curve characteristics when current is at or below 200-300% of trip rating.

 

[jaggedben]

Has anyone ever seen equipment that listed both fuse and HACR ratings and they were *different*?

Without disagreeing with any of the technicalities argued for above, this issue strikes me as near the top of the list of corrections/discussions that are most likely an actual complete waste of our time and money.

 

[LarryFine]

Has anyone ever seen equipment that listed both fuse and HACR ratings and they were *different*?

I think I remember seeing that many moons ago when they first started indicating MCA and MOCP.

Without disagreeing with any of the technicalities argued for above, this issue strikes me as near the top of the list of corrections/discussions that are most likely an actual complete waste of our time and money.

You mean here, or with inspectors?

 

[ggunn]

That is self referential, and therefore not a sound question. Clinton should have just said "It all depends on the meaning of the word is." and left it at that.

I think he should have said, "I am under oath and bound to answer your question truthfully. Truthfully, my sex life is none of your business."

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Has anyone ever seen equipment that listed both fuse and HACR ratings and they were *different*?

Without disagreeing with any of the technicalities argued for above, this issue strikes me as near the top of the list of corrections/discussions that are most likely an actual complete waste of our time and money.

Part one of your question. I have not.

Part two of you comment.
What happens when there is a warranty claim and the investigation turns up name plate was not followed. Then who is responsible for the repair.

My comment:
When the AHJ is right he is right. When he is wrong he is wrong. I find it refreshing that an AHJ is doing his job as most of us expect them to. Not just when it's convenient for us.

I also think the OP for asking and reminding me to look closer when doing an install for a design build installation.

Will gm warranty a vehicle drive train issue if they see you did not go by the tire sticker on the vehicle. A tire is a tire. Who care if it has 40" mudders and does not match the replacement tire sticker on the truck. You think wall mart would say ok and install those tires, I bet not.
They don't want the liability and wants it out back on the tire company that made it.
Ask them to put a car tire on a trailer and see what they say.

This the reason for the name plate in the first place. Even though I see no rela harm it's not what the name plate says. So fuses it is and the rest as you say is a waste of time.

 

[jaggedben]

You mean here, or with inspectors?

Here it's just time. With inspectors it's also money.

 

[jaggedben]

...

Part two of you comment.
What happens when there is a warranty claim and the investigation turns up name plate was not followed. Then who is responsible for the repair.
...

Really? Do manufacturers actually send reps out to check which OCPD you used for a mere warranty claim? (As opposed to a fire?)

But my real point wasn't that it isn't an issue, but rather that it shouldn't be.

 

[Another C10]

I would think that, generally speaking, fuses open more quickly for motor protection.

unless it's a time delay fuse.

wonder why they allow none fused pull out disconnects for AC's

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I agree with Wane & David that its probably sloppy label. Contact the manufacturer and ask them to send you a updated sticker that says max fuse or 'breaker'.
If they say yes or no then you got your answer from the manufacturer.
The reason this will work is there is no code requirement that HVAC equipment be 'UL listed' as complex commercial / industrial units can be field assembled and custom marked by the HVAC company who then is the 'manufacturer'.

While there is no code requirement, there is an OSHA requirement to use "approved" electrical equipment in the workplace, and the OSHA definition of approved is "listed by a NRTL". There are exceptions for custom built equipment but those exceptions require a field evaluation.
Note that this is a rarely enforced OSHA requirement....typically only after an incident has occurred.

 

[wwhitney]

The rules are clear as to what the markings on the nameplate mean.

Not really. If there were rules, they would be in UL 1995, and indicate when to use which phrase, and exactly what that phrase means. But instead UL 1995 44.3(i) just gives the manufacturer three labeling options, without any further guidance. So all we are left with is the "common sense" meaning, rather than any rules that elaborate on that.

I'm leaning towards the idea that if the nameplate says "Max Fuse" that is telling you the maximum OCPD size you can use, while being silent on whether you can use a circuit breaker. If the manufacturer wants to instruct you to use fuses only, it should say "Fuse Only" on the nameplate.

Cheers, Wayne