Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

[jim sutton]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Norm:
Where do you find the distinction in the code between portable and in ground hot tubs?

And also that Parts 1 and 2 are just about the feed?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[jim sutton]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

This was pasted from one of Mike Holt's newsletters on this site:

(C) Common Bonding Grid. The metallic parts of a pool, outdoor spa or hot tub specified in 680.26(B) shall be electrically bonded to a common bonding grid by a solid conductor not smaller than 8 AWG. The termination of the bonding conductor shall be made by exothermic welding, or clamps labeled (listed) as being suitable for the purpose. The common bonding grid can consist of any of the following: Figure 680-20 un680-20 680-26C.cdr
(1) The structural reinforcing steel of the concrete pool, outdoor spa or hot tub that is secured by steel tie-wires.
(2) The wall of a bolted or welded metal pool.
(3) A solid copper conductor, insulated, covered or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by jim sutton:
You're right about that Dave, but where in 680.26(C)does it say you dont need a EBG if you dont have a "paved walking surface"?

It doesn't need to say you don't need one!
If you don't have a paved walking surface it just doesn't apply. The NEC doesn't list everything you Don't need, just what you do need.

The Hot Tub is an above ground tub, but I would hardly consider it portable! or is it?! (1,000lbs empty 5,200lbs full)

I do have the 2005 G vs. B book, I'll check it out...

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Mike's G VS B book only covers Art. 250!

His "Understanding The Nat Electric Code" Volume 1 only covers up to Art. 460.

Does anyone have Volume 2?

[ September 11, 2005, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: davedottcom ]

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Jim, I understand what you're saying now.
Great, that just adds more confusion!
Actually it makes me think the E-Grid is Always required but if you have a paved walkway it must extend under it.
That's kind of lame because it doesn't give any minimum size for it. In other words if you don't have a paved walkway you can make a 12inch x 12 inch E-grid!
Now keeping in mind what it's designed to do, it doesn't make much sense to require one unless there is a walkway close to the water that can conduct voltage.
So, I'm back to thinking it's not required without the paved walkway!

 

[normbac]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
(A) Flexible Connections. Listed packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies or self-contained spas or hot tubs utilizing a factory-installed or assembled control panel or panelboard shall be permitted to use flexible connections as covered in 680.42(A)(1) and (A)(2):
(1) Flexible Conduit. Liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted in lengths of not more than 1.8 m (6 ft).
(2) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Cord-and-plug connections with a cord not longer than 4.6 m (15 ft) shall be permitted where protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

A spa that can be moved is portable here in ca. we do 1 spa per week in the summer months

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Hi normbac,
what's your point?
Are you saying the E-Grid is or isn't required?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by normbac:

A spa that can be moved is portable here in ca. we do 1 spa per week in the summer months

If you are doing one spa per week on a pad with out the bonding grid as outlined in 680.26 then you are in violation of the 2005 NEC.

As you have mentioned that you are in California I do believe that you are still under the 2002 code.

When those people in the government in the state of California can take a break from making their movies and adopt the 2005 then electricians will be required to comply with 680.26.

 

[normbac]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

where can you quote in the nec that a grid is required on a portable spa

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

I asked the same question earlier in this thread!

680.42

 

[normbac]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

can you please point to the word portable spa or hot tub

680.26 Bonding.
(A) Performance. The bonding required by this section shall be installed to eliminate voltage gradients in the pool area as prescribed.
FPN: This section does not require that the 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.
(B) Bonded Parts. The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1) through (B)(5) shall be bonded together.
(1) Metallic Structural Components. All metallic parts of the pool structure, including the reinforcing metal of the pool shell, coping stones, and deck, shall be bonded. The usual steel tie wires shall be considered suitable for bonding the reinforcing steel together, and welding or special clamping shall not be required. These tie wires shall be made tight. If reinforcing steel is effectively insulated by an encapsulating nonconductive compound at the time of manufacture and installation, it shall not be required to be bonded. Where reinforcing steel is encapsulated with a nonconductive compound, provisions shall be made for an alternate means to eliminate voltage gradients that would otherwise be provided by unencapsulated, bonded reinforcing steel.
(2) Underwater Lighting. All forming shells and mounting brackets of no-niche luminaires (fixtures) shall be bonded unless a listed low-voltage lighting system with nonmetallic forming shells not requiring bonding is used.
(3) Metal Fittings. All metal fittings within or attached to the pool structure shall be bonded. Isolated parts that are not over 100 mm (4 in.) in any dimension and do not penetrate into the pool structure more than 25 mm (1 in.) shall not require bonding.
(4) Electrical Equipment. Metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the pool water circulating system, including pump motors and metal parts of equipment associated with pool covers, including electric motors, shall be bonded. Metal parts of listed equipment incorporating an approved system of double insulation and providing a means for grounding internal nonaccessible, non?current-carrying metal parts shall not be bonded.
Where a double-insulated water-pump motor is installed under the provisions of this rule, a solid 8 AWG copper conductor that is of sufficient length to make a bonding connection to a replacement motor shall be extended from the bonding grid to an accessible point in the motor vicinity. Where there is no connection between the swimming pool bonding grid and the equipment grounding system for the premises, this bonding conductor shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor of the motor circuit.
(5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts except those separated from the pool by a permanent barrier shall be bonded that are within the following distances of the pool:
(1) Within 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally of the inside walls of the pool
(2) Within 3.7 m (12 ft) measured vertically above the maximum water level of the pool, or any observation stands, towers, or platforms, or any diving structures
(C) Common Bonding Grid. The parts specified in 680.26(B) shall be connected to a common bonding grid with a solid copper conductor, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. Connection shall be made by exothermic welding or by pressure connectors or clamps that are labeled as being suitable for the purpose and are of stainless steel, brass, copper, or copper alloy. The common bonding grid shall be permitted to be any of the following:
(1) The structural reinforcing steel of a concrete pool where the reinforcing rods are bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or the equivalent
(2) The wall of a bolted or welded metal pool
(3) A solid copper conductor, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG
(4) Rigid metal conduit or intermediate metal conduit of brass or other identified corrosion-resistant metal conduit

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

IV. Spas and Hot Tubs
pg. 538 of the 2005 NEC.

editted: wrong pg number!

[ September 11, 2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: davedottcom ]

 

[normbac]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by davedottcom:
I asked the same question earlier in this thread!

680.42

be safe ask the building dept where the permit was pulled

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by normbac:
can you please point to the word portable spa or hot tub

First of all, that's 5 words!

Secondly, why are you implying that just because it's portable different rules alpply?

Please list the article # that gives exceptions to hot tubs that are portable.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by davedottcom:
IV. Spas and Hot Tubs
pg. 538 of the 2005 NEC.

editted: wrong pg number!

Dave it is on page 538 right column last section on that page.

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
(A) Flexible Connections. Listed packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies or self-contained spas or hot tubs utilizing a factory-installed or assembled control panel or panelboard shall be permitted to use flexible connections as covered in 680.42(A)(1) and (A)(2).
(1) Flexible Conduit. Liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted in lengths of not more than 1.8 m (6 ft).
(2) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Cord-and-plug connections with a cord not longer than 4.6 m (15 ft) shall be permitted where protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted. The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.

I see no where in the Exception that is allowed in ( as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors. )
That relives the bonding grid.

I DO see where we are to treat a spa installed outside to adhere to the requirements of part II of 680 which DOES include 680.26 (C)

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

I know JW, I editted the page number!

What is your opinion of a hot tub with no paved walking surface? (wood deck)
E-grid required?
if so how big does it have to be?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by davedottcom:
I know JW, I editted the page number!

What is your opinion of a hot tub with no paved walking surface? (wood deck)
E-grid required?
if so how big does it have to be?

I changed a hot tub that was on an existing concrete pad. I unhooked one and hooked up the other. I was turned down so I appealed to the state and here is what I was told by the state of North Carolina.

Mike, 680.26(C) would apply to a new installation of a hot tub outdoors. The paved walking deck 3' out from the tub would need the equipotential bonding grid to be installed per the NEC. On existing paved areas where a hot tub is installed, this is a new installation of the tub, so the equipotential bonding grid would have to be installed or a non paved walking surface could be installed then 680.26(C) would not apply.
I hope this will clarify any questions that you may have.
Thanks
Mitchell Bryant
Chief Asst. Electrical Inspector
322 Chapanoke Rd. Suite 200
Raleigh, NC 27603-3400

In my state there is only one person above this man and a lot of the times a question is dericted to Ron Mitch will answer.

As far as one sitting on the bare ground, well I have never saw one that sit on the bare ground. I have as yet to find a hot tub installer that will install their tubs on the ground. Every one of the tub installers in my part of the country wants something under the tub.

 

[jim sutton]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Dave: you said:

What is your opinion of a hot tub with no paved walking surface? (wood deck)
E-grid required?
if so how big does it have to be?

The way I read 680.26 is that the grid is always required. If you have a paved walking surface, you must extend it 3 ft under it. If you don't have a paved walking surface, you must extend it 3ft past the inside wall of the pool per(680-26(C)(3)(b).

Your right this section is confusing.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by jwelectric:

Mike, 680.26(C) would apply to a new installation of a hot tub outdoors. The paved walking deck 3' out from the tub would need the equipotential bonding grid to be installed per the NEC. On existing paved areas where a hot tub is installed, this is a new installation of the tub, so the equipotential bonding grid would have to be installed or a non paved walking surface could be installed then 680.26(C) would not apply.

This is the exact conclusion I came to!

I take it you share this opinion with him?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Whole heartily.