Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

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jim sutton

Senior Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Agreed,jwelectric.

What I am referring to in my last post is the guy from NC saying that you can install a wood deck to get away with not installing a grid.

Where in the NEC does it say this. What am I missing?

Thanks
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

This was allowed for the replacement of an existing tub only. The tub was being replaced with a newer model on an existing patio. The old tub had been in place for five years and was being used for medical purposes. To prevent the homeowner from having to replace this patio the use of wood to cover the patio was allowed. Had this been a new installation then the grid would have been required.
:)
 

jim sutton

Senior Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

jwelectric: Thanks for the clarification.

Now, just to stir the pot a little more, suppose you have an elevated wooden deck upon which you would like to install a new hot tub. According to this section, you will have to install a grid in the ground below the tub, which on an elevated deck could be quite a distance away with no chance of touching both at the same time.

Do you think the code should be changed?
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

680.26(C)
...The equipotential common bonding grid shall extend under paved walking surfaces for 3 ft horizontally beyond the inside walls of the pool...

The requirement for the surface beyond the pool or hottub is for paved areas, not grass, wood or the like.

Personnally I would use it in grassy areas, as I have seen first hand many times the problems associated with nonmetallic pools and grass areas that are adjacent to the pool itself. JMHO
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by jim sutton:

Do you think the code should be changed?
Yes I do think there should be more clarification to the requirements to 680.26 (C) and to the best of my understanding there is a TIA in progress to help relive some of this misunderstanding.

I think that Ryan Jackson, is somehow involved in this. Maybe we could send ryan_618 a PM and get him to help us with this TIA
:)
 

jim sutton

Senior Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

680.26(C)(3)(b)

Grid Structure. The equipotential bonding grid shall cover the contour of the pool and the pool deck extending 3ft horizontally from the inside walls of the pool .......

680.26(C)(3)(c)
Securing. The below grade grid shall be secured within or under the pool and deck media.
 

davedottcom

Senior Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

My problem is solved! Local AHJ says we're still on 2002! :(
No, I'm not telling you were I live! I'm not trying to bash them... we're all in this together.

Dave
 

jim sutton

Senior Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Congrats Dave!

I hope you don't think I'm trying to bash anyone.
I'm not. The code is hard enough to learn without them changing it every 3 years! All along I thought you were under 2005, we're still under 2002 also. I'm just trying to be ready.
 

davedottcom

Senior Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Not at all Jim, arguments, I mean "discussions" are what this forum is all about. When done with tact and with respect for everyone we all learn something from it. We don't always learn the answers to the questions but we learn other stuff! :D And that's what I like about this place... the other stuff. 5 days ago, I had never heard of an Equipotential grid. Now, when I go to bid the next hot tub job, I'll know exactly what kind of a headache to expect!!!
:D
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

I'm not really involved too much with the TIA, other than talking a few times with the gentleman that proposed it trying to help him formulate his substantiation. Anyway, here is the TIA (Tentative Interim Amendment):
Reference: 680.26 TIA 05-2 (NFPA 70) (SC 05-7-15)/Log No. 821) Pursuant to Section 5 of the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects, the National Fire Protection Association has issued the following Tentative Interim Amendment to NFPA 70, National Electrical Code?, 2005 edition. The TIA was processed by the National Electrical Code? Committee, and was issued by the Standards Council on July 29, 2005, with an effective date of August 18, 2005. A Tentative Interim Amendment is tentative because it has not been processed through the entire standards-making procedures. It is interim because it is effective only between editions of the standard. A TIA automatically becomes a proposal of the proponent for the next edition of the standard; as such, it then is subject to all of the procedures of the standards-making process.

1. Revise 680.26 (C) & 680.26 (C)(1) as follows: (C) Equipotential Bonding Grid. The parts specified in 680.26(B) shall be connected to an equipotential bonding grid with a solid copper conductor, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified corrosion-resistant metal conduit. Connection shall be made by exothermic welding or by listed pressure connectors or clamps that are labeled as being suitable for the purpose and are of stainless steel, brass, copper, or copper alloy. The equipotential bonding grid shall conform to the contours of the pool and shall extend within or under paved walking surfaces for 1 m (3 ft) horizontally beyond the inside walls of the pool and shall be permitted to be any of the following: Exception: The equipotential bonding grid shall not be required to be installed under the bottom of or vertically along the walls of vinyl lined polymer wall, fiberglass composite, or other pools constructed of nonconductive materials. Any metal parts of the pool, including metal structural supports, shall be bonded in accordance with 680.26(B). For the purposes of this section, poured concrete, pneumatically applied (sprayed) concrete, and concrete block, with painted or plastered coatings, shall be considered conductive material. (1) Structural Reinforcing Steel. The structural reinforcing steel of a concrete pool or deck where the reinforcing rods are bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or the equivalent. Where deck reinforcing steel is not an integral part of the pool, the deck reinforcing steel shall be bonded to other parts of the bonding grid using a minimum 8 AWG solid copper conductor. Connection shall be per 680.26(D).

Copyright ? 2005 All Rights Reserved NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION ASSOCIATION
 

davedottcom

Senior Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Well that would seem to eliminate the Grid for any hot tub I've ever seen!

All in Favor?
:D
 

davedottcom

Senior Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

I missed the word vertically! :(
I was trying to read it and watch Monday Night Football at the same time!

[ September 12, 2005, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: davedottcom ]
 

tepres

Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Would there be anything wrong with using reinforcing mesh for concrete instead of building your own grid?
They are normally about an 8"x8" grid of reinforcing steel.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by tepres:
Would there be anything wrong with using reinforcing mesh for concrete instead of building your own grid?
They are normally about an 8"x8" grid of reinforcing steel.
I know of some places that allow this as long as the wire is size eight or larger. One place requires the type of wire that is found in hydro conduit.
:)
 

tepres

Member
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Originally posted by tepres:
Would there be anything wrong with using reinforcing mesh for concrete instead of building your own grid?
They are normally about an 8"x8" grid of reinforcing steel.
I know of some places that allow this as long as the wire is size eight or larger. One place requires the type of wire that is found in hydro conduit.
:)
That's good to know.
Seems to me that this method would be better than ties & rebar. Since all the junctions are tack welded there's more of a guarantee for maintaining equipotential.
I haven't exactly put a caliper on the stuff, but it looks pretty darn close to #8 me.
Also, it is reinforcing steel as mentioned in the code. And, taken in parts, it is in fact made of rods.
 

volt101

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Would there be anything wrong with using reinforcing mesh for concrete instead of building your own grid?
They are normally about an 8"x8" grid of reinforcing steel.
Not to sure that reinforcing mesh would qualify as the steel that 680.26(C)(1) is talking about. The word "rods" is what they are referring to when considering it structural reinforcing steel.

Jim
 
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