Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

[tepres]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Guys,
Forge the "newbie" question but...
It sounds like everyone is referencing 680.26 which is in the "Permanently Installed Pools section of 680.

Shouldn't we be looking a section IV of 680?
"Spas and Hot Tubs"
Further, I can't find anything in the code that requires actually "building" grid. You must bond all nearby metal parts thereby creating a bonding grid. If there is no rebar, there is nothing to bond. -Correct?

I do agree that you can't have too much of a good thing though.

But 680.42 doesn't seem to mention any of the above.

Again, if I am wrong please be gentle with me. It seems to me that creating a grid is great but not necessary?

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Tepres, 680.42 says......shall comply with the provisions of Parts I & II of this article.
That sends you back to 680.26 because it's in Part II.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

My only beef is with the rule that every cross over needs to be bonded with no exceptions if the wire grid is constructed from one continous piece of wire. I don't mind using up a roll of #8 for a hot tub grid, I think it's a great design, but requiring 140 pressure connections in the same wire!

Koo-Koo...Koo-Koo! :roll:

 

[petersonra]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

if the problem is crossovers, make the grid so it has just a few.

Why not run a three concentric loops around the tub, spaced 1 foot apart, and just bond them together at one spot each? only 3 conenctors.

i don't see anywhere that it says anything at all that you have to have a 1X1 foot grid.

<added> it also does not say you have to make the grid out of copper wire. why not use regular concrete reinforcing mesh?

[ September 12, 2005, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]

 

[tepres]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by davedottcom:
Tepres, 680.42 says......shall comply with the provisions of Parts I & II of this article.
That sends you back to 680.26 because it's in Part II.

Actually, it refers you to Parts I and IV.

The only reference I found to 680.26 was 680.42(B) which gives exception to one of the methods required in 680.26.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by tepres:
Actually, it refers you to Parts I and IV.

One of us has a mis-print! My book says parts I & II. I hope your's is right!!!

Bob, 680.26 (C)(3)b. describes the 12" grids

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by tepres:
Actually, it refers you to Parts I and IV.
The only reference I found to 680.26 was 680.42(B) which gives exception to one of the methods required in 680.26.

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

Here we are told that we are to comply with part II if this tub is installed outside

originally posted by petersonra i don't see anywhere that it says anything at all that you have to have a 1X1 foot grid

680.26 (C)(3) a. Materials and Connections. The grid shall be constructed of minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductors. Conductors shall be bonded to each other at all points of crossing. Connections shall be made as required by 680.26(D).

Here we are told to bond these conductors at each point of crossing.



[ September 12, 2005, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Tepres, you do have the 2005 book right?

 

[tepres]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!



[ September 12, 2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: tepres ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by tepres:

you deleted before i got here.


Well help me out a little if you would with these books. On page 538 right column of the NEC I find section 680.42 which states:

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

Page 1004 of the NEC Handbook right column I find :

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

Page 533 of the 2002 NEC right column I find:

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

And on the 2002 Handbook CD I find;

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

Now I ask what are the chances that you are reading something wrong?

After you finish reading 680.40 read 680.42 to find why we are making our statements.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

What's going on?

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Different books are printed in different places, there's always the possibility his book is printed incorrectly. I don't know what his post said, it's deleted.



My 2005 NEC is the same as yours JW.

 

[tepres]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by davedottcom:

Originally posted by tepres:
Actually, it refers you to Parts I and IV.

One of us has a mis-print! My book says parts I & II. I hope your's is right!!!

Bob, 680.26 (C)(3)b. describes the 12" grids

Nope.
Sorry Dave. I am wrong. I was citing 680.40
not 42
Love this place.
Learn something new every day.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by davedottcom:
What's going on?

tepres posted that 680 stated 680.40 General. Electrical installations at spas and hot tubs shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part IV of this article.

I went overboard to show that 680 states that when this hot tub is outside it is to be treated like a permanently installed pool as outlined in:
680.42 Outdoor Installations. A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article,

This new bonding grid found in 680.26 (C) has a lot of people trying to find a way to get out of installing it.

 

[tepres]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Sorry guys,
I deleted my prior post as soon as I realized my mistake so not to pollute with any more clutter. Tunnel vision is not a pretty thing.
You are right!

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

There must be some members,without benefit of 2005 NEC book.

*Change
680.26(c)(3)Alternative Means
(A)
Materials and Connection.
The grid shall be constructed of minimum 8AWG bare solid copper conductors.Conductors shall be bonded to each other and all points of crossing.Connections shall be made as required by 680.26(D)

680.26(C)(3)

(B)Grid Structure.
The equipotential bonding grid shall cover the contour of the pool and the pool deck extending 1m(3ft) horizontally from the inside walls of the pool.The equipotential bonding grid shall be arranged in a 300mm (12in.) by 300mm. (12in) network of conductors in a uniformed spaced perpendicular grid pattern with tolerance of 100mm(4in.)

[ September 12, 2005, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by tepres:
Sorry guys,
I deleted my prior post as soon as I realized my mistake so not to pollute with any more clutter. Tunnel vision is not a pretty thing.
You are right!

You did good my friend.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Originally posted by dillon3c:
There must be some members,without benefit of 2005 NEC book.

Sometimes I wonder if some in here have any kind of a book and if they do have one can they read.
Take me for instance, I have several books like the Cat in the Hat and See Jane Run but I don?t read them.
How much good are these books if I don?t read them?

 

[jim sutton]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

jwelectric said:

This new bonding grid found in 680.26 (C) has a lot of people trying to find a way to get out of installing it.

I think the main problem is installing the grid when you have an existing concrete or stone deck. It will be a tough sell to a homeowner to tell them that they must chip up their patio.

I'm not trying to get out of doing it, the requirement should be clarified so everyone will be on the same page. As I have said in previous posts, I see no way around installing the grid.

In my opinion, the guy from NC is misreading the section, but he is the AHJ.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub sitting on Pavers!

Please don?t feel like I was pointing you out as trying to get out of complying with this requirement.

I see this as a very big debate in my area. I teach classes that the inspectors in the state of North Carolina are required to take. At least four times this year I have stood around at breaks or sat across a table at lunch and listened to these debates over the outside pool issues. I have heard of chicken wire, hog wire and even screen wire being added to concrete and used as the bonding grid. I have listened to those opposed as well as those who agree with the bonding grid.

I agree with the grid as I see concrete as a good conductor of current. This is the reason for the change in 250.50 and the concrete encased electrode. I also understand the use of something to cover existing concrete to prevent the cost of replacing the existing concrete pad when changing a tub or adding one to an existing pad. Now I don?t see this as relief to pour a pad today and add the tub tomorrow or even six months later. This would have to be a judgment call from the code enforcement official doing the inspection. A case in hand, the inspector does a final on a home that has a junction box with #6 conductors capped off on a concrete pad and is called back six months later to inspect a hot tub. In this case the intent was to install the tub at the point of installation of the #6 conductors so if the bonding grid is not present then the concrete comes out. If inspection a tub that is being replaced from 5 years ago then cover the concrete with something and let it go.

The one I would not accept is that the tub is portable and I am going to move it next week. 680.42 is very clear, if the tub is outside it is to be treated like a permanently installed pool plug or no.