How detailed do you get with your estimates?

[sfav8r]

OK, we're at that awkward stage in our business where I now do estimates for jobs that I will not do myself. In the "good ol' days" I would go do an estimate for say a new service. I would snap a picture and scribble a few notes. If we got the job, I would be on the site and know exactly what needed to be done.

Now, we have the problem that I go do the estimate, we get the job and the guy that shows up for the job has never seen it before. So my question is, how do you guys that have already been through this handle it? Do you do a really detailed estimate so that every fitting, length of conduit, etc. is noted so that the guys know exactly what materials to bring, the length of the feeders, etc.? This sounds nice, but then if I go into that much detail on every quote we're spending a lot of time on detail for jobs we won't get.

Also, how do you communicate the plan of exactly how the install was estimated? I have been experimenting with taking digital photos and marking them up with the proposed installation, but so far it takes a lot of time.

Anyway, you get the idea. I'm just curious how others have solved this problem.

 

[mkgrady]

I would have the installer go by the proposal you give to the customer. So many times you are providing something in addition to the service change. Now your installer knows what to do in general terms. In addition I would give the installer a cut length for the SE cable or the cables in conduit, conduit type and if there is a mast involved. A picture would also be good. If you had that info, what else would you need. Isn't everything else on the truck or at least at your shop before he heads to the job?

 

[nakulak]

as detailed as time/money allows. the more info the installer has, the better, for all the reasons you posted (especially money).

 

[satcom]

OK, we're at that awkward stage in our business where I now do estimates for jobs that I will not do myself. In the "good ol' days" I would go do an estimate for say a new service. I would snap a picture and scribble a few notes. If we got the job, I would be on the site and know exactly what needed to be done.

Now, we have the problem that I go do the estimate, we get the job and the guy that shows up for the job has never seen it before. So my question is, how do you guys that have already been through this handle it? Do you do a really detailed estimate so that every fitting, length of conduit, etc. is noted so that the guys know exactly what materials to bring, the length of the feeders, etc.? This sounds nice, but then if I go into that much detail on every quote we're spending a lot of time on detail for jobs we won't get.

Also, how do you communicate the plan of exactly how the install was estimated? I have been experimenting with taking digital photos and marking them up with the proposed installation, but so far it takes a lot of time.

Anyway, you get the idea. I'm just curious how others have solved this problem.

Over the past 50 years we tracked every job from estimate to actual time and material used. with this data we are able to give accurate estimates on our projects, then the only thing you need to do is give the qualified well paid, installing mechanic a print of the project and on larger jobs a bill of materials, if you have qualified well paid electricians, your business should run like a top, if on the other hand your trying to hire low paid guys, with limited experience, your house of cards will fall apart, it will cost you more to operate.

 

[cadpoint]

Seems like your now into that multi-hat role.

I'm only going to talk about the workman's side of doing your work.

Go over the total job once, with the person in charge, let them know your desires, let them inject their ideas of your ideas. Talk about every major aspect, then the minor aspects.

Turn you bid right over to a PO for that job. Split the job up if your into multi-suppliers, and price's sometimes can be varied. Break out the wire order maybe even half again.

Get the material to the job. I've always been blessed with companies that understand that the material and equipment has to be on the job to the dance to proceed.

If it's not on the job have it there in the AM, weekly material supply orders for Tuesday and Friday's. Always get the delivery to be at break time. :roll:
Get the odd support equipment as required, and move it out when finished.

Always have suppliers call 24 hours before a delivery from freight delivers, IE known as shipping instructions.
Show up to explain your desired application of the delivery the day it arrives.

Always order both components at the same time, lamps and bird cages, Disconnects/Fuses; flex, straps and connectors, U get the idea... IE think and push your floor boss to think about their work sequences and materials, and their ordering.

If foreman has PO services available always have supplier fax a copy to the office. Run the received equipment lists back against your original bid.
You might consider making up some sheets for description of daily production completed.

 

[BryanMD]

as detailed as time/money allows. the more info the installer has, the better, for all the reasons you posted (especially money).

but that doesn't mean you show it to the customer.
the less said to them... the better.

Common jobs like service changes should already be written up in detail for costing purposes up anyway. Call it up and edit or print it out and pencil in whats special about this one.

 

[satcom]

but that doesn't mean you show it to the customer.
the less said to them... the better.

Common jobs like service changes should already be written up in detail for costing purposes up anyway. Call it up and edit or print it out and pencil in whats special about this one.

It's that easy.

 

[220/221]

We snap a few pics, take a few notes and figure out the details when we get the job. We have well stocked trucks so it's a lot easier to wing it. All jobs are costed (did I say that right?) in detail after completion to make sure we aren't guessing wrong

 

[RH1]

Here's exactly how I itemize things, room by room and I specify every item. I do Takeoffs a room at a time, you must do it on a room by room basis so that you can easily point out and capture extras when they crop up.

BEDROOM 1
4 Duplex Receptacles
1 Smoke Detector, Hard Wired
1 Dimmer Switch, Slide Type
1 Fixture Box, Fixture Not Included

BATHROOM 1
3 GFI Protected Outlets Notice I said protected, that saves money
2 Light Switches
2 Fixture Box, Fixture Not Included
1 Exhaust Fan, Standard Grade

CIRCUITS
2 15 Amp 120 Volt Circuits
2 15 Amp AFCI 120 Volt Circuits
1 20 Amp Laundry Circuit
1 15 Amp FAU Circuit
1 15 Amp Dishwasher Circuit

EXTERIOR
4 Fixture Box, Fixture Not Included
2 GFI Protected Receptacles w/ Bubble Cover
1 200 Amp Service Upgrade, Surface Mount, Overhead, Single Story



General Contractors make a living by putting subs out of business, they do this though "Scope Creep". The subtly keep increasing the unpaid work you do and pretty soon you're way beyond the scope of work initially agreed to. I will do 3 minor things for free, in the interest of customer service, after that, I whip out my change order book and get a signed work authorization before doing any more extras.

In your proposal, you must specify exactly the scope of work you are doing.

 

[220/221]

In your proposal, you must specify exactly the scope of work you are doing

1 Fixture Box, Fixture Not Included

Is the installation of the fixture included? :roll:

We have a standard disclaimer on fixtures FBO. If they are not on site at trim out there will be an additional charge to come back and install them.

 

[RH1]

Is the installation of the fixture included? :roll:

We have a standard disclaimer on fixtures FBO. If they are not on site at trim out there will be an additional charge to come back and install them.

Yeah, customers always ask if the installation is included, which of course it is, I probably should add language to that effect...

Hey, I like your language and charge about fixtures being present at trim out, I'm going to incorporate that, but I have a much bigger problem that I have not figured out how to solve:

General contractors call me and say "we're ready for you to trim out" and I give them a quick IQ test, I ask if the walls have been painted, cabinets hung, etc. Almost always they schedule me to start trimming out while painters are painting and floors are being put in, etc. I try to reason with them and say that they are not ready for trim, but they say "oh you can trim out 2 bedrooms upstairs, and the garage, there's plenty for you to do". But invariably they lied and there are painters everywhere, guys sanding drywall, etc.....

This is the most infuriating part of my job, is stupid GCs scheduling trim as soon as the drywall is nailed up. They like to see lots of guys on the job and they could care less how this ruins my productivity.

How do you handle this?

 

[iMuse97]

You need little enough detail that the customer won't read it as step-by-step instructions, and decide to do it on his own, and great enough detail that your JW can make sense out of it when he gets there, and not call you at every turn or LB.

Just a bit of advice: If you get too overinvolved in the details of the job with a guy who has done the job many times, he will resent it. If some of the ways your JW does his work wouldn't be your way, ask yourself if you really want to make an issue out of it--you only get so many openings to provide direction and to share your desires/preferences so make them count. Your man will never swim in the deep water if you always keep him in the duck blind behind the reeds.

 

[iMuse97]

Yeah, customers always ask if the installation is included, which of course it is, I probably should add language to that effect...

Hey, I like your language and charge about fixtures being present at trim out, I'm going to incorporate that, but I have a much bigger problem that I have not figured out how to solve:

General contractors call me and say "we're ready for you to trim out" and I give them a quick IQ test, I ask if the walls have been painted, cabinets hung, etc. Almost always they schedule me to start trimming out while painters are painting and floors are being put in, etc. I try to reason with them and say that they are not ready for trim, but they say "oh you can trim out 2 bedrooms upstairs, and the garage, there's plenty for you to do". But invariably they lied and there are painters everywhere, guys sanding drywall, etc.....

This is the most infuriating part of my job, is stupid GCs scheduling trim as soon as the drywall is nailed up. They like to see lots of guys on the job and they could care less how this ruins my productivity.

How do you handle this?

problem #1: You Assume an IQ of the normal range.
problem #2: Tell GC's how you like it scheduled: trim after primer, or trim after final coat, that you need two days to yourself in the building. Negotiate. Negotiate. And you'll still have troubles, but always keep your best face.

Tell em!!! "I have to do it all at once! My prices include six (or whatever) trips to the jobsite.

"I trim the whole house in one day, hang all the fixtures, and install the A/C disc.," or whatever works for you

On several occasions, we sent out a big enough crew that we overwhelmed whoever else was there. ie. You get there, and the painter says: "I've got to have this room to stain trim, and these three we are painting...." I just get on the phone to the GC and say, you need to work this out, b/c you told me to be here and now you've got him in my way, and I've got five guys who are sitting. This is gonna have to be an upcharge.

 

[220/221]

This is the most infuriating part of my job, is stupid GCs scheduling trim as soon as the drywall is nailed up. They like to see lots of guys on the job and they could care less how this ruins my productivity.

How do you handle this?

Our resi work is mostly remodel so the trim outs are only a few hours. My guys call the workers or foreman on the job to get the real story on the job status. Cut out the middle man and you get more productivity.

 

[jaylectricity]

I will do 3 minor things for free

Do you pick and choose which minor things you're doing? Do you do the first three minor things for free? Is there a good way to pick three minor things out of six to do for free? Maybe in one instance you you do the three cheapest things to do for free...or maybe you do the three easiest things to do for free...

 

[RH1]

Do you pick and choose which minor things you're doing? Do you do the first three minor things for free? Is there a good way to pick three minor things out of six to do for free? Maybe in one instance you you do the three cheapest things to do for free...or maybe you do the three easiest things to do for free...

Basically the three things I'll do is add an item from this list:

A receptacle
A switch
A fixture box
A TV Jack
A phone jack

That's about it, I won't do a recessed can or under cabinet light for free. Customers like to get a couple of freebies and doing them makes it easier when you have to sell them something more substantial.

But I am very strict after the freebies, people say "But it's only $5 of parts" but since the electrical trade is unique in that electrical generally appears on every wall and ceiling of a house, these little things can really add up, if you are lax in charging, soon you'll have installed an additional 20 boxes.

 

[LarryFine]

How do you handle this?

Just say no.

Or, tell him you will be adding a trip charge for each such wasted trip.

 

[RH1]

Just say no.

Or, tell him you will be adding a trip charge for each such wasted trip.

Ya know, telling a GC that you'll be adding a trip charge just makes them laugh. They can simply throw away such an invoice. They act like little kings and will just dismiss such a threat and say they'll just get another electrician for the next job.

I always wonder about people who say they backcharge GCs and send them invoices for scheduling too early, I wonder where these GCs are that would actually pay such an invoice.

Do you guys really backcharge GCs? Just how does that play out? GCs are selfish, arrogant and dictatorial, which is funny because they are profoundly stupid, lack construction knowledge and don't have a clue how to run a business.

I've never back charged a GC, it just seems like a waste of time...

 

[George Stolz]

Do you guys really backcharge GCs? Just how does that play out? GCs are selfish, arrogant and dictatorial, which is funny because they are profoundly stupid, lack construction knowledge and don't have a clue how to run a business.

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

In general, I'd like to think that this breed of GC is a dying one. I really don't care if someone matching that description decides to find the next electrician anyway, so I don't care about hurting their "feelings" by tacking on a change order for their inattention to detail.

Business is business.

Interested to see more responses on the OP, we're in the process of reviewing our proposals as well.

 

[petersonra]

This is a problem with virtually all businesses where you are selling a customized service where the guy selling it has little direct contact with the guy doing the work.

There is no good answer other than to document it as best you can, and maybe have a chat with the guy who is doing the actual work prior to him heading out for the work.

I have been doing custom designs for amost 30 years now and it amazes me to this day how different the expectations can be of what the salesman sold versus what the customer bought.