How to use two 30 amp receptacles and get 50 amps

[K8MHZ]

Well, I can see we all agree about this product. :grin:

The county I live in has many marinas as it a Lake Michigan shoreline county. The City of Muskegon electrical inspector is very strict. He is a walking code book. I am very interested in getting his opinion. I am sure he will be interested in seeing this as well.

I may also be able to get my grubby little paws on one as there are many large boat shops here.

If I get the time and still are curious, I would like to get some specific NEC violations to present to the shops selling these in hopes of getting a 'defense' from Hubbell through one of their distributors.

Since I am not an inspector (but I did stay as a Holiday Inn Express one night) I would like to know under what circumstances an electrical inspection would be performed that would cover a boat owner's use of the adapter in question. Do you guys come back after a marina has all their stickers to check to see what the boat owners are plugging into them? If you are inspecting the marina, can you ding them for something one of their slip lessees have plugged in or do you have the right to cite the watercraft owner?

 

[iwire]

I would like to get some specific NEC violations to present to the shops selling these in hopes of getting a 'defense' from Hubbell through one of their distributors.

There is nothing illegal or even wrong in selling products that may violate the NEC.

For instance the supply houses stock both listed and unlisted FMC, only one can actually be used for NEC applications but you want to guess which is cheaper and still gets sold?

 

[Cavie]

Since I am not an inspector (but I did stay as a Holiday Inn Express one night) I would like to know under what circumstances an electrical inspection would be performed that would cover a boat owner's use of the adapter in question. Do you guys come back after a marina has all their stickers to check to see what the boat owners are plugging into them? If you are inspecting the marina, can you ding them for something one of their slip lessees have plugged in or do you have the right to cite the watercraft owner?

This is not an NEC issue. The inspector does not go back and inspect what the boat owners are pluging in. Do you want an inspector coming into your house and looking at what you have pluged in?? The local fire department can come by twice a year and does in many towns in Florida and looks for fire safty code violations but this device won't be one of them. As knowledge and inovations grow, you will see lote of things that are new a belived by some to be illeagle. Look for brand names on these types of devices and you probibly won't go wrong.

 

[iwire]

This is not an NEC issue.

I disgaree.

The inspector does not go back and inspect what the boat owners are pluging in.

I agree.

. Do you want an inspector coming into your house and looking at what you have pluged in??

Nope, that does not mean it is not still an NEC issue, there is nothing at all about inspections in the NEC, that is up to the local area.


Fireworks are illeagl in this state, if I happen to have some in my home that is an issue even though the police are not about to kick my door in looking for them.

The local fire department can come by twice a year and does in many towns in Florida and looks for fire safty code violations but this device won't be one of them. As knowledge and inovations grow, you will see lote of things that are new a belived by some to be illeagle. Look for brand names on these types of devices and you probibly won't go wrong.

That is kind of demeaning, what you are saying is if someone thinks this device is non-compliant it is because they do not know as much as you know.

 

[wireguru]

There is nothing illegal or even wrong in selling products that may violate the NEC.

thats not true everywhere. In some jurisdictions its illegal to sell, rent, or use items that arent listed.

 

[Volta]

thats not true everywhere. In some jurisdictions its illegal to sell, rent, or use items that arent listed.

What things? Lollipops? Shoes? Swingsets? Baling wire? SUVs? :roll:

 

[480sparky]

What things? Lollipops? Shoes? Swingsets? Baling wire? SUVs? :roll:

Crack. Automatic weapons. Women. Marijuana. Nuclear bombs. Pirated music.

 

[wireguru]

What things? Lollipops? Shoes? Swingsets? Baling wire? SUVs? :roll:

since the context of this conversaion is electrical, i didnt feel it necessary to spell it out


thats not true everywhere. In some jurisdictions its illegal to sell, rent, or use electrical devices and utilization equipment that arent listed.

 

[Smart $]

Reference?



Doesn't it though?

Section 90.2(B) states that "Installations in ships, watercraft other than . . ." are Not Covered.

Section 90.2(A) states that "This Code covers the installation of electrical conductors, equipment . . . and raceways for the following:
(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures. . . and floating buildings."

How do we decide if this 'no-mans' land' is governed by NFPA70 or the CFR or other?

CFR (Code of Federal Regulations), Title 46: Shipping, Part 129 Electrical Installations.

As we know, the NEC in and of itself is not a legal document until adopted as law by the AHJ. CFR Title 46 only mentions the NEC in regards to compliance with 250.95 (does not exist anymore in NEC, but is regarding equipment grounding conductor sizing), 310.13 (conductor types), and 310.15 (ampacity).

Then there is...

? 129.390 Shore power.

Each vessel that has an electrical system operating at more than 50 volts and has provisions for receiving shore power must meet the requirements of this section:

(a) A shore-power-connection box or receptacle must be permanently installed at a convenient location.

(b) A cable connecting the shore-power-connection box or receptacle to the switchboard or main distribution panel must be permanently installed.

(c) A circuit breaker must be provided at the switchboard or main distribution panel for the shore-power connection.

(d) The circuit breaker, required by paragraph (c) of this section, must be interlocked with the feeder circuit breakers for the vessel's power sources to preclude the vessel's power sources and shore power from energizing the vessel's switchboard simultaneously, except in cases where system devices permit safe momentary paralleling of OSV power with shore power.

The regulations regarding this discussion are highlighted. Being the shore power cable is required to be permanently installed, without any mention of the NEC, leads me to believe the connecting power cable [including any extension cable(s) and plug-to-receptacle adapter(s)] are part of the watercraft.

 

[Smart $]

NEC ends at the receptacle...

That is a popular opinion but IMO is not supported by the words in the NEC.

Seems to be supported by CFR 46, ? 129.390.

First

...

Charlie B will say placing an appliance in a room and plugging it is is not 'installing' it. To me that is just a convenient reading to reach the conclusion he would like.

Consider.

...

I could go on but I think the point has been made, clearly all the above code sections apply 'beyond the outlet'.

IMO the NEC applies to all electrical conductors and equipment in Public and private premises regardless of who is installing them.

So we are back to an electrical license and/or permit being required by all consumers using such appliances, where electrical installation licenses and/or permits are required and the NEC has been adopted without amendment to the contrary :roll:

So you are also saying if any of these cord-and-plug connected appliances are IN a watercraft, the NEC applies to those too!

IMO, the NEC overstepped its jurisdiction on most those accounts and reflects the influence the listing agencies have on the trade. I would agree the NEC has jurisdiction on cord-and-plug-connected appliances that are fixed in place, where the cord and plug serve as a local disconnecting means... but that is it.

 

[Volta]

CFR (Code of Federal Regulations), Title 46: Shipping, Part 129 Electrical Installations.

As we know, the NEC in and of itself is not a legal document until adopted as law by the AHJ. CFR Title 46 only mentions the NEC in regards to compliance with 250.95 (does not exist anymore in NEC, but is regarding equipment grounding conductor sizing), 310.13 (conductor types), and 310.15 (ampacity).

There are about 25 Sections referring to the NEC in CFR 46 Part 111 alone, but I am not going through each of them. Various sub-sections of Part 129 refer back to 111, and 129 also allows for an alternative standard for vessels not exceeding 65 ft in length. But do I agree in general.

Then there is...

​

The regulations regarding this discussion are highlighted. Being the shore power cable is required to be permanently installed, without any mention of the NEC, leads me to believe the connecting power cable [including any extension cable(s) and plug-to-receptacle adapter(s)] are part of the watercraft.

I agree.

But look at:

Title 46: Shipping
PART 111?ELECTRIC SYSTEMS?GENERAL REQUIREMENTS


Browse Previous | Browse Next


Subpart 111.83?Shore Connection Boxes

? 111.83-1 General.
Each shore connection box must be of a size that accommodates the connections of the flexible and fixed cables.



? 111.83-5 Bottom entrance and protected enclosures.
Each shore connection box must have a bottom entrance for the shore connection cable. The box must provide protection to the shore connection when the connection is in use.

Easily interpreted to require the proper size to accommodate the flexible cable connections (50 amp in this case).

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That is a popular opinion but IMO is not supported by the words in the NEC.
...
Charlie B will say placing an appliance in a room and plugging it is is not 'installing' it. To me that is just a convenient reading to reach the conclusion he would like.
...
IMO the NEC applies to all electrical conductors and equipment in Public and private premises regardless of who is installing them.

I agree with Charlie and I also believe that the sections you quoted are all invalid sections as they are outside the scope of the code.

 

[Volta]

Seems to be supported by CFR 46, ? 129.390.

What if a welder is needed to work on the dock structure itself, could you justify the use of this adapter to derive a 50 amp outlet with no watercraft around?

So we are back to an electrical license and/or permit being required by all consumers using such appliances, where electrical installation licenses and/or permits are required and the NEC has been adopted without amendment to the contrary :roll:

Being required by the NEC? I don't think so. But of course you don't either.

 

[iwire]

So we are back to an electrical license and/or permit being required by all consumers using such appliances, where electrical installation licenses and/or permits are required and the NEC has been adopted without amendment to the contrary :roll:

IMO the permits and licensing are of no concern to the NFPA, if areas have poorly written permitting and licensing laws that is not the NFPAs fault.

 

[iwire]

I agree with Charlie and I also believe that the sections you quoted are all invalid sections as they are outside the scope of the code.

And yet there they are, some of them for many code cycles. It seems like a precedent has been set even if we do not really like it.

 

[iwire]

Consider this, lets say the two outlets it is plugged into are from seperate transformers, that will result in current flow over the EGCs

At perhaps half the resistance of a single egc.

I assume you are talking of fault current, eh?

No I am talking about normal unbalanced neutral current.

 

[Smart $]

No I am talking about normal unbalanced neutral current.

On the EGC(s)???

 

[Smart $]

What if a welder is needed to work on the dock structure itself, could you justify the use of this adapter to derive a 50 amp outlet with no watercraft around?

Of course it wouldn't be justified. The adapter is sold specifically for the use of shore power supplied to marine vessels. That said, if I were the welder, I wouldn't hesitate in using it

 

[Volta]

But why wouldn't it be justified?

 

[K8MHZ]

But why wouldn't it be justified?

Moot point.

Look at the product. It is specifically made for a cord that Hubbell makes for marine use. A welder plug won't (or at least shouldn't and doesn't look like) plug into the adapter.