I hate relying on reps for switchboard layouts

[Tainted]

I do electrical service upgrades for buildings up to 4000 amps and always seek out exact dimensions for my switchboards and panelboards for my design.

I create a oneline diagram and send it to reps and then they give me switchboard layout and dimensions. I go back and forth with the rep to clarify some things and get the switchboard dimensions I am looking for. Sometimes if the layout and dimension is too large I then switch and seek out a custom switchboard manufacturer to give me what I need. I have done so many of them that I can sometimes "estimate" the sizes, but still need to go and seek out the reps.

That being said, is there anyway I can do this myself without relying on the rep? I hate going back and forth with the reps to give me the dimensions needed. Just looking for a way to save some time.

Is there some kind of UL891 switchboard design software out there that can do this all for me? Or is there an easy way to do this without tools? I mainly use fuses and circuit breakers for switchboards, nothing too crazy.

 

[hmspe]

Eaton has dimensions in their Consulting Application Guide. Search for "Eaton's Consulting Application Guide". The current version is 2012 but switchgear doesn't change much.

For Square D you can go to the online Digest, Section 11: Switchboards and Switchgear, then find the catalog number for the series you want to use. 2700CT1101 is the catalog for QED-2. The catalog has dimensions.


I work in a EUSERC area so these work well for me. I can't speak to how well they work in New York. I would only use the data as a guide. The manufacturer will have final say on how a lineup they build will be configured.

 

[Tainted]

Eaton has dimensions in their Consulting Application Guide. Search for "Eaton's Consulting Application Guide". The current version is 2012 but switchgear doesn't change much.

For Square D you can go to the online Digest, Section 11: Switchboards and Switchgear, then find the catalog number for the series you want to use. 2700CT1101 is the catalog for QED-2. The catalog has dimensions.


I work in a EUSERC area so these work well for me. I can't speak to how well they work in New York. I would only use the data as a guide. The manufacturer will have final say on how a lineup they build will be configured.

I use some of those guides online but I still have to verify with rep for them to have the final say and sometimes it will turn out a little different. Maybe I'm just bad at looking at the guide, I sometimes have trouble with unit spaces

Sometimes I spec custom equipment and I wish the custom switchboard manufacturers have a guide.

Custom switchboards have smaller dimension than the ones on the guide you mentioned

 

[binwork91]

We don't communicate with the supply house frequently. The contractor or client provides submittals to us, and we simply follow them. We only address issues when the switchboard does not comply with code or when it is too large to fit in the room. In those cases, we request an updated submittal.

However, we do need to make a revision for the as-built once the contractor finishes the project.

 

[Tainted]

We don't communicate with the supply house frequently. The contractor or client provides submittals to us, and we simply follow them. We only address issues when the switchboard does not comply with code or when it is too large to fit in the room. In those cases, we request an updated submittal.

However, we do need to make a revision for the as-built once the contractor finishes the project.

This is interesting. How does that even work? Are you saying you let the contractors do the engineering and you just look at the submittal and approve it? How do you get a contractor to do that for you? Reason I ask is because buildings want me to bid the design before a contractor is chosen.

Furthermore, I do 1000kVA EPR drawing filing, I can't just rely on the contractor for that because I need exact dimensions which is why I communicate with supply house and manufacturers

Do you do 1000kVA filing or you have a 3rd party do that for you? I've heard sometimes engineers have contractors hire a 3rd party engineer to do it.

 

[binwork91]

This is interesting. How does that even work? Are you saying you let the contractors do the engineering and you just look at the submittal and approve it? How do you get a contractor to do that for you? Reason I ask is because buildings want me to bid the design before a contractor is chosen.

Furthermore, I do 1000kVA EPR drawing filing, I can't just rely on the contractor for that because I need exact dimensions which is why I communicate with supply house and manufacturers

Do you do 1000kVA filing or you have a 3rd party do that for you? I've heard sometimes engineers have contractors hire a 3rd party engineer to do it.

I do EPR drawings, and I believe I am the third-party engineer you mentioned.

We use all submittals provided by the contractor.

Dimensions are not a big issue for us; the AIC rating is the main concern. We perform short circuit calculations and coordination studies to determine if the OCPD is adequate.

The equipment the contractor purchases is not our focus. Some prefer switchboards, others prefer disconnect switches; some choose fuses, while others opt for breakers. They know what works best for them, including price, labor, and other materials. We care about whether the equipment the contractor selects will function properly.

In fact, some of the supply houses we work with understand how to design the equipment, and we don’t have any difficulties with them. Usually, just one or two emails, and they provide the equipment we need.

 

[Tainted]

I do EPR drawings, and I believe I am the third-party engineer you mentioned.

We use all submittals provided by the contractor.

Dimensions are not a big issue for us; the AIC rating is the main concern. We perform short circuit calculations and coordination studies to determine if the OCPD is adequate.

The equipment the contractor purchases is not our focus. Some prefer switchboards, others prefer disconnect switches; some choose fuses, while others opt for breakers. They know what works best for them, including price, labor, and other materials. We care about whether the equipment the contractor selects will function properly.

In fact, some of the supply houses we work with understand how to design the equipment, and we don’t have any difficulties with them. Usually, just one or two emails, and they provide the equipment we need.

I see how it works for you now. It seems like contractors are your clients. Whereas my clients are the building owners.

Dimensions is the hardest for me, especially when I'm working on existing buildings and need to maintain 230.64 and 110.26 clearances and ensure there is clearances above switchboards due to foreign equipment above existing electrical rooms. Short circuit and coordination studies are easy if I'm just doing 1st and 2nd level devices.

Does the contractor do the surveying for you or do you do it all yourself? I do everything in the design phase without the contractor.

 

[binwork91]

Does the contractor do the surveying for you or do you do it all yourself?

I go to job site to do the surveying.

I don’t quite understand why the building owner needs you to handle the supply house or even design the equipment. i

I think the contractor gets the submittals from the supply house, and the MEP or engineer of record reviews them.

Because I always seem some commend on the submittal and ask for revised and resubmit.

And after finishing the power system study, the contractor always provides us with a revised submittal based on our recommendations.

I remember some of electrical set has nice one line with switchboard equipment layout, but it does not always same as equipment that contractor order. So I do not get why you need to design the switchboard. I think that is supply house's job.

 

[Tainted]

I don’t quite understand why the building owner needs you to handle the supply house or even design the equipment. i

That's because the building wants me to bid the job after the design is finished. For this reason contractor is not available during the design phase to help me get submittals. Does the building ever ask you to bid the job? If so, how do you have contractors do all that stuff without it having to go to bid first?

Furthermore I don't understand how I am not obligated to specify the switchboards? why would that be up to the contractor? I am the engineer after all.

Here's my process:

1) Client asks to investigate building infrastructure and capacity
2) I visit the building and write a report detailing their infrastructure is poor
3) We have a meeting after issuance of report and discuss next steps
4) I write the proposal for the design and have them sign it
5) I survey the building for the design
6) I start the design drawing on autocad and ask manufactures and supply houses for dimensions based on my design
7) I file the design if it's 1000kVA
8) Once drawing is approved I send drawings to bid
9) Contractor is chosen

 

[curt swartz]

You could be costing the client $$$ by specifying specific equipment. The contractors can get quotes from multiple supply houses representing multiple manufactures.

Lets say you specify Eaton equipment. That limits which supply houses can supply the equipment. That means all contractors bidding the project have to be established with an Eaton distributor or they will not get favorable pricing. It also means Eaton can charge substantially more than they would if they had to compete against other manufactures.

As a contractor I would expect you to do a basic design. Let me select a supplier and manufacture to use.

 

[binwork91]

That's because the building wants me to bid the job after the design is finished. For this reason contractor is not available during the design phase to help me get submittals. Does the building ever ask you to bid the job? If so, how do you have contractors do all that stuff without it having to go to bid first?

Furthermore I don't understand how I am not obligated to specify the switchboards? why would that be up to the contractor? I am the engineer after all.

Here's my process:

1) Client asks to investigate building infrastructure and capacity
2) I visit the building and write a report detailing their infrastructure is poor
3) We have a meeting after issuance of report and discuss next steps
4) I write the proposal for the design and have them sign it
5) I survey the building for the design
6) I start the design drawing on autocad and ask manufactures and supply houses for dimensions based on my design
7) I file the design if it's 1000kVA
8) Once drawing is approved I send drawings to bid
9) Contractor is chosen

I don't know if the process you're following is common or not.

From my experience, once the design is complete, all contractors bid on the project, and one of them gets the job (I guess the lowest price usually wins).

Some contractors will do value engineering (VE) to submit a lower bid, which means the design might change

 

[Tainted]

As a contractor I would expect you to do a basic design. Let me select a supplier and manufacture to use.

To me this is insane. If the contractor chooses which type of equipment, that's a change order waiting to happen. Dimensions will change if the contractor specifies something that is not compatible with the design such as dimensions.

I don't know if the process you're following is common or not.

From my experience, once the design is complete, all contractors bid on the project, and one of them gets the job (I guess the lowest price usually wins).

Some contractors will do value engineering (VE) to submit a lower bid, which means the design might change

So does this mean you file for 1000kVA after bid? I file 1000kVA before bid, so maybe that's why my method is different than yours

 

[binwork91]

To me this is insane. If the contractor chooses which type of equipment, that's a change order waiting to happen. Dimensions will change if the contractor specifies something that is not compatible with the design such as dimensions.

I think as long as the scope of work is complete, the equipment receives the necessary power, the system operates properly, and everything complies with code, then which equipment is installed and how it’s installed is not a big deal.

So does this mean you file for 1000kVA after bid? I file 1000kVA before bid, so maybe that's why my method is different than yours

Yes, I file the EPR after the bid. The contractor provides me with the electrical set, equipment submittals, and the electrical room CAD file.

I will find out how the contractor wants to connect these pieces of equipment, even if the submittals don’t match the one-line diagram 100%.

 

[Tainted]

Yes, I file the EPR after the bid. The contractor provides me with the electrical set, equipment submittals, and the electrical room CAD file.

I will find out how the contractor wants to connect these pieces of equipment, even if the submittals don’t match the one-line diagram 100%.

The reason I file 1000kVA before bid is to make sure there are no change order.

For example lets say you file for 1000kVA after bid and the contractor is chosen: What if the plan examiner is going to tell you to change something in your drawing that affects the price? Then the contractor is going to hit you with a change order.

 

[binwork91]

The reason I file 1000kVA before bid is to make sure there are no change order.

For example lets say you file for 1000kVA after bid and the contractor is chosen: What if the plan examiner is going to tell you to change something in your drawing that affects the price? Then the contractor is going to hit you with a change order.

if contractor bid the project and is chosen, does it mean he need to finish the project with that price?

To me, I do the drawing base on equipment contractor provide.
Usually, we submit the drawing and get approved by DOB before contractor order the equipment.

But it does not matter, contractor does not like to follow approved drawing. That is why we need to do an as built revision drawing for approve again. Of course, we will point out the issue if as built has code violation.

So, I don't see change order problem on my end. In fact, I only help contactor get EPR drawing done with all equipment they provided.

 

[Tainted]

if contractor bid the project and is chosen, does it mean he need to finish the project with that price?

Yes if we want no change orders. Change orders look bad and that means the client needs an explanation.

if contractor bid the project and is chosen, does it mean he need to finish the project with that price?

To me, I do the drawing base on equipment contractor provide.
Usually, we submit the drawing and get approved by DOB before contractor order the equipment.

But it does not matter, contractor does not like to follow approved drawing. That is why we need to do an as built revision drawing for approve again. Of course, we will point out the issue if as built has code violation.

So, I don't see change order problem on my end. In fact, I only help contactor get EPR drawing done with all equipment they provided.

Since you do not seek out submittals yourself, how do you complete your design and get switchboard dimensions before bid and before you pick a contractor? As I said I get my dimensions by obtaining submittals myself

 

[binwork91]

Since you do not seek out submittals yourself, how do you complete your design and get switchboard dimensions before bid and before you pick a contractor? As I said I get my dimensions by obtaining submittals myself

1. We follow the electrical set. Depending on the submittal provided by the contractor, the EPR drawing might differ slightly from the electrical set, but the distribution system should remain the same.
2. I think contractor just provide electrical set to supply house, they will provide you submmital. Then we just need to put all equipment together and make sure equipment will work.
3. The bidding price should cover everything, including an estimate for the equipment.
4. You have the room dimensions, so you fit the equipment into the room. You can move equipment around in the room, if this wall does not fit, move it to other wall. Why you bother by equipment dimension?

 

[Tainted]

1. We follow the electrical set. Depending on the submittal provided by the contractor, the EPR drawing might differ slightly from the electrical set, but the distribution system should remain the same.

Yea but that doesn't explain how you design your drawings without the submittals initially. I cannot just specify where I want to put the switchboard without knowing the dimensions first.

4. You have the room dimensions, so you fit the equipment into the room. You can move equipment around in the room, if this wall does not fit, move it to other wall. Why you bother by equipment dimension?

I bother with equipment dimensions because I want to make sure my equipment will fit. I work on existing buildings and do service upgrades with foreign objects everywhere. For example I need to avoid putting a switchboard in a space that violates 110.26(F)(1). Finding space for equipment is extremely difficult. In my experience, even 1 inch can make or break the design.

 

[binwork91]

Yea but that doesn't explain how you design your drawings without the submittals initially. I cannot just specify where I want to put the switchboard without knowing the dimensions first.

I do have submittal, contractor provide it. I think I has mentioned it a few time. I don't design the submittal.
I usually don't ask change dimension, only when switchboard is too long with many section, and no wall will fit. Others, I ask for change bus size, breaker, fuse.

I bother with equipment dimensions because I want to make sure my equipment will fit. I work on existing buildings and do service upgrades with foreign objects everywhere. For example I need to avoid putting a switchboard in a space that doesn't violate 110.26(F)(1). Finding space for equipment is extremely difficult

It sounds like you’ve had some bad luck. In the existing buildings I work with, there’s always enough space for me to fit the equipment. Some contractors even tell me they can make the room bigger if needed.

 

[Tainted]

I do have submittal, contractor provide it. I think I has mentioned it a few time. I don't design the submittal.
I usually don't ask change dimension, only when switchboard is too long with many section, and no wall will fit. Others, I ask for change bus size, breaker, fuse.

Yea but you had also mentioned you do the design before bid and before the contractor is chosen and before they provide you with the submittal. So how do you do the design before obtaining the submittal and knowing dimensions? It makes no sense to me.

It sounds like you’ve had some bad luck. In the existing buildings I work with, there’s always enough space for me to fit the equipment. Some contractors even tell me they can make the room bigger if needed.

Personally, not really. I just dot my i's and cross my t's. To get what I want and know will work would require me to get submittals first before bid. You must have great contractors then because they would hit me with a change order if they tell me they can make the room bigger after the project is bidded and awarded to the contractor. Also I always have to modify a lot of stuff in electrical rooms just to make space