I hate relying on reps for switchboard layouts

[binwork91]

Yea but you had also mentioned you do the design before bid and before the contractor is chosen and before they provide you with the submittal. So how do you do the design before obtaining the submittal and knowing dimensions? It makes no sense to me.

You might misunderstand it somewhere.
Contractor provide the bid with all cost and profit they calculated.
After they get chosen. Then Contractor provide me the submittal, electrical set, and Cad for the electrical room. Then I do the EPR drawing.
I don't worry about equipment's dimension, because the room is big enough to fit the equipment, all I need to do is move the equipment in the room, to create a room layout that fit all equipment per electrical set.

Personally, not really. I just dot my i's and cross my t's and to get what I want and know will work would require me to get submittals first. You must have great contractors then because they would hit me with a change order if they tell me they can make the room bigger. Also I always have to modify a lot of stuff in electrical rooms just to make space

As Curt Swartz said @#10, contractor like to pick the equipment by themselves.


Also, contractors often don’t like to follow the design because they know how to make things easier for themselves.


___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In a word, You work for building owner, I work for contractor. If building owner ask to you to get the submittal, then you have no choice.
To me contractor provide me the submittal.

 

[hmspe]

If I have space constraints I'll include something like, "the switchboard shall not be more than 118 in width" on the plans. Contractors want to use the brand they get the best deal on. There is no guarantee that the widths of the various brands will be the same for a given configuration so a design using Eaton may not be the same size as equipment from Square D, Siemens, or other brands. I have had cases where one manufacturer needed an extra section (or two) because of the specifics of their equipment. I'm fine with having the contractor pick the brand and be responsible for making sure it fits.

 

[Tainted]

If I have space constraints I'll include something like, "the switchboard shall not be more than 118 in width" on the plans. Contractors want to use the brand they get the best deal on. There is no guarantee that the widths of the various brands will be the same for a given configuration so a design using Eaton may not be the same size as equipment from Square D, Siemens, or other brands. I have had cases where one manufacturer needed an extra section (or two) because of the specifics of their equipment. I'm fine with having the contractor pick the brand and be responsible for making sure it fits.

I can't just do that though... Plan examiners in NYC want everything exact, they do not want to see preliminary drawings. The only thing i can do is amend drawings after final installation. I think if they see your note, they will disapprove the plan.

 

[curt swartz]

I can't just do that though... Plan examiners in NYC want everything exact, they do not want to see preliminary drawings. The only thing i can do is amend drawings after final installation. I think if they see your note, they will disapprove the plan.

Then you should get the contractor on board earlier in the process.

If space is that tight it would probably better if the client used a design build contractor that takes care of the engineering. The contractor will have more field construction experience to figure out how to make things work.

 

[Tainted]

Then you should get the contractor on board earlier in the process.

If space is that tight it would probably better if the client used a design build contractor that takes care of the engineering. The contractor will have more field construction experience to figure out how to make things work.

Absolutely not. Contractors doing the engineering is a conflict of interests. Besides like I said, I work for the building, not the contractor. Getting a contractor before bid is impossible.

 

[curt swartz]

Absolutely not. Contractors doing the engineering is a conflict of interests. Besides like I said, I work for the building, not the contractor. Getting a contractor before bid is impossible.

You are nuts! I feel sorry for your clients. I feel the way you handle projects is fraud.

All of the mid and large EC's offer design build including engineering. Most larger EC's have multiple engineers on staff. Smaller contractor such as myself contract with independent engineers.

 

[Tainted]

You are nuts! I feel sorry for your clients. I feel the way you handle projects is fraud.

All of the mid and large EC's offer design build including engineering. Most larger EC's have multiple engineers on staff. Smaller contractor such as myself contract with independent engineers.

Do not call me a fraud. I am just following the rules. Here's a quote for the NYS Department of Education:

12. Can an entity not authorized to provide professional engineering or land surveying services in New York, such as a general contractor, subcontract with a licensed professional engineer or land surveyor in order to provide such services?

No. An entity not authorized to provide professional engineering and/or land surveying services, such as a general contractor, can not subcontract with a licensed professional engineer or land surveyor in order to provide professional services to a third party client. The basis for professional regulation is that the service of the professional must be provided directly from the professional to the client without any unlicensed third party between the client and the professional. This unlicensed third party may have other interests (such as financial) that could jeopardize the level and/or quality of the professional service received by the client.​

 

[curt swartz]

The fraud is forcing the client to use 1 manufacture of equipment. That means they limit the contractors bidding the project and end up paying substantially for for the equipment.

If the client specifies a manufacture that's fine but it should not be you. Some large clients want to keep all equipment in the facility the same manufacture so if everything is currently ABC brand they want the additional equipment to be the same. Some clients also have purchase agreements with manufactures.

There is no reason your clients can't get a contractor involved early in the project to help with layout and equipment selection.

Not to offend any engineers here but I find many engineers are very educated but lack any real world construction experience. An experienced contractor is much better at figuring out how to make things work.

 

[Tainted]

The fraud is forcing the client to use 1 manufacture of equipment. That means they limit the contractors bidding the project and end up paying substantially for for the equipment.

I think you need to pick up a dictionary and lookup the word fraud.

Also, I do not force my clients to do anything. I give them my plans for review, if they want something changed, then I do it.

 

[jim dungar]

Different states have different laws.

I do know not to argue with the engineering regulations of New York.

 

[Tainted]

Different states have different laws.

I do know not to argue with the engineering regulations of New York.

Yup, NY does not screw around. I've seen so many get burned by their regulations

 

[ramsy]

if they want something changed, then I do it.

I gather New York contractors have a reputation for incompetence?

Perhaps the monkeys are less regulated than the plans?

 

[Tainted]

I gather New York contractors have a reputation for incompetence?

There's good and bad apples

 

[MyCleveland]

You might misunderstand it somewhere.
Contractor provide the bid with all cost and profit they calculated.
After they get chosen. Then Contractor provide me the submittal, electrical set, and Cad for the electrical room. Then I do the EPR drawing.
I don't worry about equipment's dimension, because the room is big enough to fit the equipment, all I need to do is move the equipment in the room, to create a room layout that fit all equipment per electrical set.

As Curt Swartz said @#10, contractor like to pick the equipment by themselves.


Also, contractors often don’t like to follow the design because they know how to make things easier for themselves.


___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In a word, You work for building owner, I work for contractor. If building owner ask to you to get the submittal, then you have no choice.
To me contractor provide me the submittal.

May I ask what gear manufacturer you work for?

 

[MyCleveland]

If I have space constraints I'll include something like, "the switchboard shall not be more than 118 in width" on the plans. Contractors want to use the brand they get the best deal on. There is no guarantee that the widths of the various brands will be the same for a given configuration so a design using Eaton may not be the same size as equipment from Square D, Siemens, or other brands. I have had cases where one manufacturer needed an extra section (or two) because of the specifics of their equipment. I'm fine with having the contractor pick the brand and be responsible for making sure it fits.

Your last sentence is only acceptable if the Designer knows that at least one company makes equipment that will fit.

 

[MyCleveland]

I think you need to pick up a dictionary and lookup the word fraud.

Also, I do not force my clients to do anything. I give them my plans for review, if they want something changed, then I do it.

You NEVER should spec anything on your jobs with one name…unless TOLD by the owner or Architect otherwise. Absolutely nothing wrong with basing your design on Eaton, but provide the details of the dimensions on plan, demand prebid verification by the bidders and allow alternate manufacturers if other’s equipment will fit.

 

[MyCleveland]

The fraud is forcing the client to use 1 manufacture of equipment. That means they limit the contractors bidding the project and end up paying substantially for for the equipment.

If the client specifies a manufacture that's fine but it should not be you. Some large clients want to keep all equipment in the facility the same manufacture so if everything is currently ABC brand they want the additional equipment to be the same. Some clients also have purchase agreements with manufactures.

There is no reason your clients can't get a contractor involved early in the project to help with layout and equipment selection.

Not to offend any engineers here but I find many engineers are very educated but lack any real world construction experience. An experienced contractor is much better at figuring out how to make things work.

Your last sentence…an EC is no better equipped to perform the design than an EE. Even the ones that are will do the same operation….send a request to a gear manufacturer for verification…

 

[binwork91]

May I ask what gear manufacturer you work for?

I do not work for the manufacturer. I am a third-party engineer hired by the contractor to create drawings and conduct power system studies.

 

[MyCleveland]

I do not work for the manufacturer. I am a third-party engineer hired by the contractor to create drawings and conduct power system studies.

Are you providing drawings for an entire job or project or just the shop drawings for a gear package ?

 

[Strathead]

Your last sentence…an EC is no better equipped to perform the design than an EE. Even the ones that are will do the same operation….send a request to a gear manufacturer for verification…

Wow, there is some animosity through this thread. Curt didn't say an EC is better equipped to perform design, he said better at figuring out how to make things work. As a general statement, I find that to be true. We look at things like, how the conduit is going to be routed, the space required for a 3" flex 90 from a transformer, and a myriad of other installation details that an Engineer shouldn't concern himself with.