• We will be performing upgrades on the forums and server over the weekend. The forums may be unavailable multiple times for up to an hour each. Thank you for your patience and understanding as we work to make the forums even better.

I hate relying on reps for switchboard layouts

Merry Christmas
S

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Tainted said:
Do not call me a fraud. I am just following the rules. Here's a quote for the NYS Department of Education:

​

12. Can an entity not authorized to provide professional engineering or land surveying services in New York, such as a general contractor, subcontract with a licensed professional engineer or land surveyor in order to provide such services?​

​

No. An entity not authorized to provide professional engineering and/or land surveying services, such as a general contractor, can not subcontract with a licensed professional engineer or land surveyor in order to provide professional services to a third party client. The basis for professional regulation is that the service of the professional must be provided directly from the professional to the client without any unlicensed third party between the client and the professional. This unlicensed third party may have other interests (such as financial) that could jeopardize the level and/or quality of the professional service received by the client.​

Click to expand...
What exactly do you consider "Engineering services?" You spec out a 3000A free standing switchboard, based on Square D. We propose based on Eaton. Eaton comes back and in order to fit, we need to shift the gear 2 feet to the left. You forgot to account for the space needed for the surge protection, we propose relocating panel A across the room, or using combined panel/transformers to save space. You are still the Engineer of record, so based on sketches you submit redesigned room layout.

On the other hand, calling you a fraud is entirely uncalled for. There are tons of reasons to spec out only one manufacturer of equipment. Match existing comes immediately to mind. Coordination study another. But at the same time, trying to achieve a design in an existing building with no change orders is a pipe dream. The up front cost is much higher. Just because you are the final say on the "design" doesn't mean you can't rely on the contractor to help with economical solutions.
 
M

MyCleveland

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Strathead said:
Wow, there is some animosity through this thread. Curt didn't say an EC is better equipped to perform design, he said better at figuring out how to make things work. As a general statement, I find that to be true. We look at things like, how the conduit is going to be routed, the space required for a 3" flex 90 from a transformer, and a myriad of other installation details that an Engineer shouldn't concern himself with.
Click to expand...
I believe the animosity is brought by yourself. We are talking about finding a large gear line-up to fit inside of an old building. It is good to know you have countless ways to make that happen.
 
B

binwork91

Senior Member
Location
new york
Occupation
electrical engineer
MyCleveland said:
Are you providing drawings for an entire job or project or just the shop drawings for a gear package ?
Click to expand...
It depends on scope of work.
In NYC, EPR drawing is the one required to show one line up to second OCPD and main electrical room layout. The room layout required to show the dimension. So the drawing need to be same as as built to pass inspection, include equipment dimension, just top view.
 
S

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
MyCleveland said:
I believe the animosity is brought by yourself. We are talking about finding a large gear line-up to fit inside of an old building. It is good to know you have countless ways to make that happen.
Click to expand...
Sorry that my post made you think I was saying YOU caused animosity. That was my bad typing. Mostly I was referring to one person calling the OP a fraud and to a lesser extent several of the back and forth posts about telling the OP has is doing too much. Then you turn around and incorrectly characterize what I was saying about coordination. As experienced electricians, we look at things from a different perspective than an experienced Electrical Engineer. Over my career, I have worked with many Engineers, most of whom rely on our installation expertise as well as a small handful who assume the "my way or the highway!" attitude. Guess which one provides a better, more cost effective installation for the customer. That is basically what I was implying.
 
R

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Strathead said:
Guess which one provides a better, more cost effective installation for the customer.
Click to expand...

OP works directly with clients to specify switch gear without licensed-contractor expertise, or wholesale OEM accounts, and apparently avoids major change orders, and As-Builds, by proofing equipment inventory before ordered.

If architects can competitively bid such project scope, without sabotaging AHJ inspections, corporate accounting may consider that brilliant, check the references, and award the contract.
 
M

MyCleveland

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
binwork91 said:
It depends on scope of work.
In NYC, EPR drawing is the one required to show one line up to second OCPD and main electrical room layout. The room layout required to show the dimension. So the drawing need to be same as as built to pass inspection, include equipment dimension, just top view.
Click to expand...
Ok…
You mentioned you also provide SCC studies I believe. When completed, is the study SEALED by your office and submitted to the city for review ?
 
M

MyCleveland

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Strathead said:
Sorry that my post made you think I was saying YOU caused animosity. That was my bad typing. Mostly I was referring to one person calling the OP a fraud and to a lesser extent several of the back and forth posts about telling the OP has is doing too much. Then you turn around and incorrectly characterize what I was saying about coordination. As experienced electricians, we look at things from a different perspective than an experienced Electrical Engineer. Over my career, I have worked with many Engineers, most of whom rely on our installation expertise as well as a small handful who assume the "my way or the highway!" attitude. Guess which one provides a better, more cost effective installation for the customer. That is basically what I was implying.
Click to expand...
I simply responded to your statements.

Fifth sentence…I assure you you’re mistaken.
Sixth sentence…OMG. Most EEs rely on you…and the rest are those Dubya guys. Are you copying this stuff from your web page.

Let’s get back to switchboard layouts.
 
M

MyCleveland

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
ramsy said:
OP works directly with clients to specify switch gear without licensed-contractor expertise, or wholesale OEM accounts, and apparently avoids major change orders, and As-Builds, by proofing equipment inventory before ordered.

If architects can competitively bid such project scope, without sabotaging AHJ inspections, corporate accounting may consider that brilliant, check the references, and award the contract.
Click to expand...
Does the designer need a licensed-contractor to layout an equipment row?

Reads like the opening in a civil trial.
 
electrofelon

electrofelon

Senior Member
Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Tainted said:
Do not call me a fraud. I am just following the rules. Here's a quote for the NYS Department of Education:

​

12. Can an entity not authorized to provide professional engineering or land surveying services in New York, such as a general contractor, subcontract with a licensed professional engineer or land surveyor in order to provide such services?​

​

No. An entity not authorized to provide professional engineering and/or land surveying services, such as a general contractor, can not subcontract with a licensed professional engineer or land surveyor in order to provide professional services to a third party client. The basis for professional regulation is that the service of the professional must be provided directly from the professional to the client without any unlicensed third party between the client and the professional. This unlicensed third party may have other interests (such as financial) that could jeopardize the level and/or quality of the professional service received by the client.​

Click to expand...
I think part of it is you have to know whether a PE is required in the first place. If there is no requirement, a design build contractor can do everything. Maybe NYC has specific rules, but upstate I am not aware of any jurisdictions that require a PE to do electrical design.
 
C

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I looked at the top 50 electrical contractors in the US list for 2023 and 3 of the contractors are based in New York. All 3 offer design build services and have completed some very large projects. I'm sure much larger than the OP ever deals with. These are just part of the top 50. I'm sure there are 1,000's of more design/build contractors in NY that didn't make the list.

I have no idea if they have EE's on staff that are involved with the design.

I also have no idea of the laws and working's of New York.

I will stand my my opinion that an EC that has years of field experience is much better in dealing with projects that have complicated conditions. Even if they are not 100% responsible for the design they should be brought in early in the project to help with the design.

Most EE's have little if any field experience. They are book smart but field experience is important in completing a complicated design.

Same goes for inspectors. Those that have field experience understand nothing is perfect. Those that are only book smart can make projects miserable.
 
B

binwork91

Senior Member
Location
new york
Occupation
electrical engineer
MyCleveland said:
So if you include the study…how do you compete against other EE bidders providing a price that does not include this and instead passes this responsibility to the EC?
Click to expand...
I am the engineer, so getting business isn’t my job; someone else in the office handles that.

It’s common for the electrical contractor to hire a third party to conduct the study, as we perform many studies for contractors. A lot of information needs to be provided by them.

Whether an electrical set includes a study or not often comes down to cost. I agree with your perspective.
 
M

MyCleveland

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
binwork91 said:
I am the engineer, so getting business isn’t my job; someone else in the office handles that.

It’s common for the electrical contractor to hire a third party to conduct the study, as we perform many studies for contractors. A lot of information needs to be provided by them.

Whether an electrical set includes a study or not often comes down to cost. I agree with your perspective.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your replies.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top