Illegal Business Practices

[renosteinke]

There's only one party that has the right to use the stamp, and that is the stamp's owner. Any other use and you're dancing on the edges of fraud, theft of service, and lots of other bad things. Even the re-use of drawings can be a violation, as often the guy with the stamp 'owns' the design.

When in doubt, ask the guy with the stamp. If he's in the loop, you're good to go. It's his call .... not yours, not your boss's.

Some guys will further cover their tails by making a little notation next to the stamp, something along the lines of "John Smith, On Behalf Of:" The idea is to indicate that John Smith used the stamp with the permission of the stamp holder. This is no less proper than the stamp holder having his secretary actually apply the stamp.

 

[gadfly56]

I understand that it could be constured into a felony by somebody sticking thier nose in where it doesn't belong, but if these two are long time friends, one is helping the other with a stamp and the other is not just putting simple stuff on his friends desk that lightens his work load. What if he is paying him ontop of all this for his stamp and verbal approval over the phone?

I can't speak to any other jurisdiction, but in NJ the engineer would be up for a $500 fine per occurance, and if there were a lot of drawings and/or over a substantial period of time, suspension or revocation of his license. As the licensed professional you're supposed to be "in responsible charge". That means at kickoff when the general design decisions are under review and a peek or two while the drawings are prepared and the final review. And what you say, goes. If this isn't pretty much the process, you may not be meeting the intent of the law. You sure as heck aren't meeting it with a casual mention over burgers and brews.

 

[Fulthrotl]

No, the boss is an electrical contractor. He is a electrician by trade that owns his own company. He hires out an engineer to stamp his projects.

around here, it's the wet ink signature that counts.

i can open up a drawing in autocad, grab the stamp, and paste it anywhere i wish....
i usually put it in the title block.... :dunce:

then i email it over to my EE, and he looks it over, checks my stuff, and tunes it up.
then he mails it back to me, and i get it printed.

then he signs 4 sets.
then i pay him.

if i leave out any of those parts, it's fraud.

 

[kwired]

There's only one party that has the right to use the stamp, and that is the stamp's owner. Any other use and you're dancing on the edges of fraud, theft of service, and lots of other bad things. Even the re-use of drawings can be a violation, as often the guy with the stamp 'owns' the design.

When in doubt, ask the guy with the stamp. If he's in the loop, you're good to go. It's his call .... not yours, not your boss's.

Some guys will further cover their tails by making a little notation next to the stamp, something along the lines of "John Smith, On Behalf Of:" The idea is to indicate that John Smith used the stamp with the permission of the stamp holder. This is no less proper than the stamp holder having his secretary actually apply the stamp.

That is my first thought, before we even get into engineering licensing laws, who does the stamp belong to and do they approve of it being used in this case. If this is a way to get a stamp on a drawing that the stamp owner did not approve, we have a problem before we even get into what the laws may be.

 

[gadfly56]

That is my first thought, before we even get into engineering licensing laws, who does the stamp belong to and do they approve of it being used in this case. If this is a way to get a stamp on a drawing that the stamp owner did not approve, we have a problem before we even get into what the laws may be.

I'm not intimately familiar with the regulations in all 50 states, but there is sufficient similarity that I would bet a moderate sum that EVEN IF the stamp holder approved of the owner stamping drawings that the licensee never reviewed, they'd both be in violation of the law.

 

[zbang]

who does the stamp belong to and do they approve of it being used in this case. If this is a way to get a stamp on a drawing that the stamp owner did not approve, we have a problem before we even get into what the laws may be.

The right to stamp/approve drawings in conferred upon an individual by the licensing board in the same manner as a doctor/dentist/lawyer/etc. In most places, that license also grants the right to use the title "professional engineer" and the tag "P.E." without being considered fraudulent. Sure, somebody in an a doctor's office could write something on a prescription pad and maybe get it filled, but the law doesn't look too kindly on that, either. I suppose that there may be exceptions to all this, but I don't know of any off-hand.

 

[PetrosA]

So just how common are electronic engineer/architect stamps? Aren't they usually embossed or inked stamps with a real signature to make them official? I could easily "forge" any electronic image of a stamp, and I'm not especially talented that way, so it would seem pretty stupid to allow them. Copies of original stamped documents should be easy to identify and not considered official until stamped and signed, right?

 

[petersonra]

The right to stamp/approve drawings in conferred upon an individual by the licensing board in the same manner as a doctor/dentist/lawyer/etc. In most places, that license also grants the right to use the title "professional engineer" and the tag "P.E." without being considered fraudulent. Sure, somebody in an a doctor's office could write something on a prescription pad and maybe get it filled, but the law doesn't look too kindly on that, either. I suppose that there may be exceptions to all this, but I don't know of any off-hand.

I cannot recall the last time I got a prescription actually signed by a doctor. sometimes they were just printed out and not signed at all, other times a nurse signed the doctor's name to the prescription, a few times it was signed by a PA.

But it is not like I get prescriptions real often.

My wife gets prescritpion drugs pretty regularly. Most of the time they are called in or it is printed with no signature.

 

[iceworm]

So just how common are electronic engineer/architect stamps? ...

I'm only familiar with one State. AFAIK the State doesn't care how the stamp is applied. But, I have seen the customer have preferences:

The one without preferences get mylars with an ACAD block stamp. The printed block is wet signed. Then the drawing is scanned to usually a pdf. Prints of the pdf will have a signed stamp block. Any ACAD electronic copy has the stamp block, but no signature.

The ones with preference, get a paper print with an embossed stamp and wet signature. It will still be scanned to a pdf and prints of the pdf will have a signed stamp block. ACAD electronic copies may or may not have the stamp block (usually do have the block)

I don't recall hearing of any cases of forging stamps.

ice

 

[iceworm]

... I could easily "forge" any electronic image of a stamp, and I'm not especially talented that way, so it would seem pretty stupid to allow them. Copies of original stamped documents should be easy to identify and not considered official until stamped and signed, right?

As for forging, I don't recall ever seeing it happen. If it was my stamp and I saw it, I would file a complaint and ask for prosecution (sp?). or if the state found out and told me I would support prosecution. But I doubt it would be more than a hand slap.

Of all the illegal activity I have seen:
Most often, it is similar to that favored by members of this forum - DIY engineering by EC, with no stamp.

Second most common is DIY Engineering with a PE paid to stamp (with or without review - illegal either way). Even big engineering firms will do this. They will get a contract for a state where they don't have a PE registered for that state. So they will hire a one-guy/girl shop in the state and pay to have the drawings stamped.

I've never heard of anyone going to jail for illegal engineering. And its the customers that police this - not the state. For any sizeable job, the customer will want to see the bond and get a copy of the E&O insurance. That stuff is a little harder to fake.

As for "official, stamped, signed drawings", I have built a lot of stuff from stamped drawings and as a contractor or owners rep, I have never seen a set of original wet stamped and wet signed drawings. All I have seen are copies. All I have ever sent to the state/building authority are copies. and all of the copies have a copy of the stamp and signature.

So, I will say: It is stupid to not to allow ACAD blocks - why would anyone bother to steal it and forge a signature? A stamp and signature applied by the registered PE is cheap and easy to buy.

ice

 

[PetrosA]

As for forging, I don't recall ever seeing it happen. If it was my stamp and I saw it, I would file a complaint and ask for prosecution (sp?). or if the state found out and told me I would support prosecution. But I doubt it would be more than a hand slap.

Of all the illegal activity I have seen:
Most often, it is similar to that favored by members of this forum - DIY engineering by EC, with no stamp.

Second most common is DIY Engineering with a PE paid to stamp (with or without review - illegal either way). Even big engineering firms will do this. They will get a contract for a state where they don't have a PE registered for that state. So they will hire a one-guy/girl shop in the state and pay to have the drawings stamped.

I've never heard of anyone going to jail for illegal engineering. And its the customers that police this - not the state. For any sizeable job, the customer will want to see the bond and get a copy of the E&O insurance. That stuff is a little harder to fake.

As for "official, stamped, signed drawings", I have built a lot of stuff from stamped drawings and as a contractor or owners rep, I have never seen a set of original wet stamped and wet signed drawings. All I have seen are copies. All I have ever sent to the state/building authority are copies. and all of the copies have a copy of the stamp and signature.

So, I will say: It is stupid to not to allow ACAD blocks - why would anyone bother to steal it and forge a signature? A stamp and signature applied by the registered PE is cheap and easy to buy.

ice

Thanks for that info. I haven't dealt with anything like this in the US. I did have to deal with various "official" type documents in Poland when I lived there, and real stamps and signatures were definitely needed for anything that was getting submitted. I know things are different here but I'm never quite sure how. Just yesterday I went to a local borough to get a contractor parking permit. You pay by check and have to show all the registration etc for the vehicle, so they have my business check, registration etc, and the lady tells me I need to have a business card, too. I asked her if my business check - a pretty official item with my logo and name etc on it, seriously counted less than a business card I could have printed off on my inkjet. "Yes" was the answer. Wow. Okay.

 

[zbang]

I cannot recall the last time I got a prescription actually signed by a doctor. sometimes they were just printed out and not signed at all, other times a nurse signed the doctor's name to the prescription, a few times it was signed by a PA.

The few I'm handed are all wet signed even when computer printed (the optometrist does this). But even if they're called in by the staff, the staff is operating under the direction of the doctor or is someone authorized to prescribe, like a physician assistant.

 

[charlie b]

Here is my take on the situation. The seal itself is a matter of public record. Our CAD department has an electronic file of each of the seals of all PE?s (and architects) in the office, from any states in which we are licensed. Placing the seal on a drawing by use of electronic manipulations does not require the knowledge of approval of the licensee. However, placing both the seal and an electronic image of the licensee?s signature does require the knowledge of approval of the licensee.

So if a client specifically wants the drawings to be electronically sealed and signed, here are the key steps in the process:

• The licensee tells the CAD drafter to apply the seal and signature. That usually means that I have to sign and date a blank sheet of paper, and the CAD drafter scans it to create the electronic signature file.
• The drawings are plotted as PDF files that are then sent to the client.
• The electronic seal and signature are removed from the original CAD file, and the CAD file is then sent to the client.
• In no case is an electronic CAD file released with the seal and signature still present in the file.

 

[PetrosA]

Here is my take on the situation. The seal itself is a matter of public record. Our CAD department has an electronic file of each of the seals of all PE?s (and architects) in the office, from any states in which we are licensed. Placing the seal on a drawing by use of electronic manipulations does not require the knowledge of approval of the licensee. However, placing both the seal and an electronic image of the licensee?s signature does require the knowledge of approval of the licensee.

So if a client specifically wants the drawings to be electronically sealed and signed, here are the key steps in the process:

• The licensee tells the CAD drafter to apply the seal and signature. That usually means that I have to sign and date a blank sheet of paper, and the CAD drafter scans it to create the electronic signature file.
• The drawings are plotted as PDF files that are then sent to the client.
• The electronic seal and signature are removed from the original CAD file, and the CAD file is then sent to the client.
• In no case is an electronic CAD file released with the seal and signature still present in the file.

The pdf file would be sufficient to pull the seal and signature from in most cases if someone were inclined to do so.

 

[gadfly56]

Here is my take on the situation. The seal itself is a matter of public record. Our CAD department has an electronic file of each of the seals of all PE?s (and architects) in the office, from any states in which we are licensed. Placing the seal on a drawing by use of electronic manipulations does not require the knowledge of approval of the licensee. However, placing both the seal and an electronic image of the licensee?s signature does require the knowledge of approval of the licensee.

So if a client specifically wants the drawings to be electronically sealed and signed, here are the key steps in the process:

• The licensee tells the CAD drafter to apply the seal and signature. That usually means that I have to sign and date a blank sheet of paper, and the CAD drafter scans it to create the electronic signature file.
• The drawings are plotted as PDF files that are then sent to the client.
• The electronic seal and signature are removed from the original CAD file, and the CAD file is then sent to the client.
• In no case is an electronic CAD file released with the seal and signature still present in the file.

Charlie, I know that in NJ this wouldn't fly. They want an ink signature and raised seal or it's no go.

 

[gadfly56]

The pdf file would be sufficient to pull the seal and signature from in most cases if someone were inclined to do so.

Since few, if any, scanned sets are scanned in color, I always sign in a non-standard (ie, not blue or black) ink. If it's not my color, it's not my signature.

 

[PetrosA]

Since few, if any, scanned sets are scanned in color, I always sign in a non-standard (ie, not blue or black) ink. If it's not my color, it's not my signature.

That's a good method if you're scanning in the plans. Charlie mentioned having pdfs created directly from the CAD files, which could produce various results depending on the pdf settings (export as bitmap, etc.). Ultimately raised stamps are probably the best since forging them is probably not worth the time and effort it would take.

 

[petersonra]

That's a good method if you're scanning in the plans. Charlie mentioned having pdfs created directly from the CAD files, which could produce various results depending on the pdf settings (export as bitmap, etc.). Ultimately raised stamps are probably the best since forging them is probably not worth the time and effort it would take.

I have not seen a raised stamp on anything in at least ten years. I thought that practice had been abandoned entirely. Notaries just have a stamp these days and sign next to the stamp.

 

[petersonra]

I have not seen a raised stamp on anything in at least ten years. I thought that practice had been abandoned entirely. Notaries just have a stamp these days and sign next to the stamp.

now that i think about it some more, I can't recall ever seeing a PE drawing with a raised stamp on it. Must be a regional thing.

 

[kwired]

now that i think about it some more, I can't recall ever seeing a PE drawing with a raised stamp on it. Must be a regional thing.

Is it possible that only limited drawings are officially stamped, signed, sealed, etc. and the many copies distributed to the actual installers are simply copies?