interlockit kits

[don_resqcapt19]

FTCN

FTCN

This is the UL Guide for "Engine Generators for Portable Use" FTCN.
It prohibits the use of an interlock kit as the transfer equipment, but only if you are using a listed engine generator. 110.3(B) would trigger this requirement for listed generators, but there is nothing in the NEC that would require the transfer equipment to switch the grounded conductor when using a non-listed portable generator to power a building.

GENERALThis category covers internal-combustion-engine-driven generators rated 15 kW or less, 250 V or less, which are provided only with receptacle outlets for the ac output circuits. The generators may incorporate alternating- or direct-current generator sections for supplying energy to battery-charging circuits.
When a portable generator is used to supply a building or structure wiring system:

1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, "National Electrical Code" (NEC).​

2. The generator is intended to be connected through permanently installed Listed transfer equipment that switches all conductors other than the equipment grounding conductor.​

3. The frame of a Listed generator is connected to the equipment-grounding conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor of the generator. When properly connected to a premises or structure wiring system, the portable generator will be connected to the premises or structure grounding electrode for its ground reference.​

4. Portable generators used other than to power building or structure wiring systems are intended to be connected to ground if required by the NEC.​

​

 

[suemarkp]

How do you know what a given generator was listed under? Mine has a UL label on it, and would meet the scope of FTCN, but the listing category isn't on the label. Does UL keep a listing of what products were listed in what category, or is this something you have to get from the manufacturer? Is there an easy way to search that or do you have to pay for a UL membership?

How long has FTCN been around? Could it have been listed in a different category it FTCN wasn't established yet at the time of listing?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Mark,
There should be a file number ("E" number) number on the listed product. You can look that up on UL's site and find out what it was listed as.
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.htm

 

[jwelectric]

HHow long has FTCN been around? Could it have been listed in a different category it FTCN wasn't established yet at the time of listing?

several years now. The easy way of knowing is to see if the 30 amp receptacle is GFCI protected. If it is then it will not work unless connected as a SDS

 

[goldstar]

I hear what you're all saying but is anyone waving UL-FTCN flags in the Home Depot or Lowes parking lots while they're selling 5500 watt generators out of the back of a semi ??? As previously mentioned, desperate times seem to call for desperate measures. People who are buying these units, that were sitting at home with their families freezing their butts off, couldn't give a red rats behind about UL-FTCN. If the only choices I see available are to have someone back-feed a main breaker panel through an AC disconnect or use an interlock kit I'm picking an interlock kit. It may be screamning NEC Code Violation but I know it's safer than the alternative.

BTW, Nice to hear from you again Mike. Long time no talk.

 

[PetrosA]

Heard this scary story today at the supply house:

Guy comes in on Wednesday to get stuff to hook his generator into the house wiring. No S cable available or anything else generator related, but he had a L14-30 to plug into his generator, so he bought two 6' range cables, was going to connect one to the L14-30, cut the other end off, and wanted to use wirenuts to connect it to the other cord, but couldn't find wirenuts big enough to connect the two #6s together, so the counter guy suggested he buy some bugs. He didn't like that idea since he didn't know how to tape them up, so he decided to just lay the stripped #6 over the fork on the other range cord and tape them together. I guess this whole contraption was supposed to reach through the kitchen window to backfeed the house.

Good luck.

 

[jwelectric]

I have a 5500 and a 7500 Honda generator.

What I don?t have is any type of device to connect either one to my home.

What I do have is four 100 feet #12 cords which is very code legal. I am smart enough to know better than use one of these generators for watching TV.

 

[goldstar]

I have a 5500 and a 7500 Honda generator.

What I don?t have is any type of device to connect either one to my home.

What I do have is four 100 feet #12 cords which is very code legal. I am smart enough to know better than use one of these generators for watching TV.

I hear you. What are you doing to power your heating system ?

 

[jwelectric]

I hear you. What are you doing to power your heating system ?

In my home we have two 10KW electric furnaces with 3 ton heat pumps. Neither of these generators is large enough to handle either of these heating units so we have gas logs in the fireplace which keeps us fairly toasty, one cord to the fan to blow the heat around and another for a lamp. The other generator is for the well so the horses have water as well as the water closet.

I would never connect one of these small generators to my home or to anyone else?s home.

Take a close read of not only the code sections but also to the Informational Notes included with the following;
110.2
110.3
590.6(A)(3)
Definitions of the following;
Approved
Identified
Listed
Labeled
Also try and remember that the authority having jurisdiction does not always mean the code enforcement official. It also includes NRTLs such as UL in which case it would also include UL FTCN.

The requirement found in 590.6(A)(3) will bring a halt to the use of cord and plug installations of these cracker boxes.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
Also try and remember that the authority having jurisdiction does not always mean the code enforcement official. It also includes NRTLs such as UL in which case it would also include UL FTCN. ...

The AHJ can only be an entity that has the responsibility of enforcing the code. That cannot be a NRTL as they have no responsibility for code enforcement.

 

[goldstar]

In my home we have two 10KW electric furnaces with 3 ton heat pumps. Neither of these generators is large enough to handle either of these heating units so we have gas logs in the fireplace which keeps us fairly toasty, one cord to the fan to blow the heat around and another for a lamp. The other generator is for the well so the horses have water as well as the water closet.

I would never connect one of these small generators to my home or to anyone else?s home.

Mike, I'm so happy to hear you're in your nice, warm and cozy home, being all toasty and everything with your gas log fireplace. What I really think you should do is make a bed sheet sized flag with all the NEC sections you've cited on it and take a ride up north where people up here without power are freezing their butts off. Stand in a gas station line, wave your flag and beg people not to get gas for their generators - see how far you get. I don't know what they're showing you on the news in NC but people up here are starting fights and getting arrested over a can of gas. People are chaining their portable generators to their houses to prevent theft. And I don't live in a high crime area.

I'm not trying to be a smart-a** about this. But, people are desperate in these trying times and will do anything to keep their families warm and keep their perishables cold. I would rather help someone out and safely connect a portable generator to a residence rather than have some novice try to jury-rig something that would put him and his family in danger. I think we should be looking at the NEC and try to find ways that we can safely perform a service in an emergency situation rather than scrutinize the NEC and find reasons why we can't.

Just my 2 cents worth Great arguing with you again !!!

 

[jwelectric]

The AHJ can only be an entity that has the responsibility of enforcing the code. That cannot be a NRTL as they have no responsibility for code enforcement.

I read this a little different than what you have said here

Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). An organization, office, or individual responsible for enforcing the requirements of a code or standard, or for approving equipment, materials, an installation, or a procedure.


Informational Note: The phrase ?authority having jurisdiction,? or its acronym AHJ, is used in NFPA documents in a broad manner, since jurisdictions and approval agencies vary, as do their responsibilities. Where public safety is primary, the authority having jurisdiction may be a federal, state, local, or other regional department or individual such as a fire chief; fire marshal; chief of a fire prevention bureau, labor department, or health department; building official; electrical inspector; or others having statutory authority. For insurance purposes, an insurance inspection department, rating bureau, or other insurance company representative may be the authority having jurisdiction. In many circumstances, the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of the authority having jurisdiction; at government installations, the commanding officer or departmental official may be the authority having jurisdiction.

 

[jwelectric]

If they are freezing their butts off why are they trying to keep their food even colder?

 

[goldstar]

If they are freezing their butts off why are they trying to keep their food even colder?

Good point. When this happened in last year's halloween snow storm I just put my perishables out in the snow.:happyyes:

 

[Hv&Lv]

Mike, I'm so happy to hear you're in your nice, warm and cozy home, being all toasty and everything with your gas log fireplace. What I really think you should do is make a bed sheet sized flag with all the NEC sections you've cited on it and take a ride up north where people up here without power are freezing their butts off. Stand in a gas station line, wave your flag and beg people not to get gas for their generators - see how far you get. I don't know what they're showing you on the news in NC but people up here are starting fights and getting arrested over a can of gas. People are chaining their portable generators to their houses to prevent theft. And I don't live in a high crime area.

I'm not trying to be a smart-a** about this. But, people are desperate in these trying times and will do anything to keep their families warm and keep their perishables cold. I would rather help someone out and safely connect a portable generator to a residence rather than have some novice try to jury-rig something that would put him and his family in danger. I think we should be looking at the NEC and try to find ways that we can safely perform a service in an emergency situation rather than scrutinize the NEC and find reasons why we can't.

Just my 2 cents worth Great arguing with you again !!!

I know it's bad there, we never made it because of bureaucracy. Got as far as WVA.

I read these posts on generator safety, and see so many that have never seen desperate times. No one should let their families suffer just because they don't have an intelock kits IMO.

Fact is, DIY'ers will connnect generators with or without the help of an electrician, licensed or not. I know it is against code, but I will assist some in pulling the meter and glassing it over to protect the linemen. I try to tell all to trip the main and pull the meter.

A big problem is the people that actually call and ask if the generator can be ran inside the house. They want to know if it really is that dangerous... those are the ones that even an interlock won't help.

Mike, don't be so mean. It was 44 when you got up this morning, and you had heat and power.

And to top it off, there is another storm coming to that area in a couple of days...

 

[Little Bill]

I have a 5500 and a 7500 Honda generator.

What I don?t have is any type of device to connect either one to my home.

What I do have is four 100 feet #12 cords which is very code legal. I am smart enough to know better than use one of these generators for watching TV.

I'm not seeing the reason/logic here. What would watching TV powered from a generator have to do with anything?

 

[jwelectric]

I'm not seeing the reason/logic here. What would watching TV powered from a generator have to do with anything?

Just how clean do you think the voltage from one of those cracker boxes? Most don't have any type of voltage regulators at all.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I'm not seeing the reason/logic here. What would watching TV powered from a generator have to do with anything?

I'm not sure either. I thought televisions used a combination of flybacks and other types of SMPS, not line voltages :?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I read this a little different than what you have said here

Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). An organization, office, or individual responsible for enforcing the requirements of a code or standard, or for approving equipment, materials, an installation, or a procedure.


Informational Note: The phrase ?authority having jurisdiction,? or its acronym AHJ, is used in NFPA documents in a broad manner, since jurisdictions and approval agencies vary, as do their responsibilities. Where public safety is primary, the authority having jurisdiction may be a federal, state, local, or other regional department or individual such as a fire chief; fire marshal; chief of a fire prevention bureau, labor department, or health department; building official; electrical inspector; or others having statutory authority. For insurance purposes, an insurance inspection department, rating bureau, or other insurance company representative may be the authority having jurisdiction. In many circumstances, the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of the authority having jurisdiction; at government installations, the commanding officer or departmental official may be the authority having jurisdiction.

I stand by my statement that the NRTL does not have resonisbility for the enforcement of the standard after the product has left the manufacturing facility.

 

[iceworm]

Just how clean do you think the voltage from one of those cracker boxes? Most don't have any type of voltage regulators at all.

Fine. I've got a 3.3kw out at a cabin. It charges the phone, powers a DVD video player, laptop, speaker and base for an ipod, charges the tool batteries - and charges the inverter batteries at the same time. Additionally, all except the DVD video player will run off the inverter. Something about the inverter output puts lines in the screen - but the inverter will charge its batteries and it plays fine on batteries.

As Hv mentioned:

I'm not sure either. I thought televisions used a combination of flybacks and other types of SMPS, not line voltages :?

Those new fangled switching mode power supplies are amazing things.

Side note: Everyone of those "cracker boxes" has voltage regulator.

ice