Is there any evidence that AFCI have been preventing fire caused by electrical arc?

[r6680jc]

New member here, not from US of A.

You guys who are in the US or other countries dealing with AFCI, have you guys found any real evidence of AFCI have been preventing fire caused by electrical arc (AFCI tripped not because of "noisy" loads or real RFI or ground fault)?

AFAIK, on low voltage 240V or less, loose connections with resistive loads are more likely to produce electrical "spark" than electrical arc (unless there are carbon buildups), do AFCIs also trip when there's electrical "spark"?

Do some AFCIs also "measure" voltage waveform instead of only current waveform to sense electrical arc? I ask this because I've read some AFCI can be tripped from "noisy" loads in different circuit (or line side?).

 

[hbiss]

There has to be hundreds of pages on this site on this subject. To cut to the chase: AFCIs are the biggest fraud on the American people ever. Manufacturers infiltrated the Code making panel with their employees and got the NEC to require their use. Big win for the manufacturers profits. In their 20 years of existence they have never been proven to have saved one life. There is no evidence that they have prevented any fires either. Nobody knows exactly how they are supposed to work because the manufacturers keep that a secret. So your guess is as good as anybodies. It has been suggested that it is impossible to put enough "computing horsepower" into that small of a package to do what they claim they will do. All we do know is they don't work and proving that they do is impossible.

-Hal

 

[r6680jc]

There has to be hundreds of pages on this site on this subject. To cut to the chase: AFCIs are the biggest fraud on the American people ever. Manufacturers infiltrated the Code making panel with their employees and got the NEC to require their use. Big win for the manufacturers profits. In their 20 years of existence they have never been proven to have saved one life. There is no evidence that they have prevented any fires either. Nobody knows exactly how they are supposed to work because the manufacturers keep that a secret. So your guess is as good as anybodies. All we do know is they don't work and proving that they do is impossible.

-Hal

Yeah, I've read some of those, AFCI seems to trip on somethings that shouldn't trip it (some SMPSs, SCR based dimmers, HAM radios, even brushless AC electrical motors), but I couldn't find any real life arc test (not manufacturer's "controlled" demonstrations, and not electrical sparks created by rapidly connecting and disconnecting conductors to loads).

Based on manufacturers' claims, how many half cycles should electrical arc last to trip AFCI? Is it 4 or 8 half cycles? Does it mean 4 (or 8) continuous or total 4(or 8) in a span of some milli seconds?

If AFCIs don't really work like they're supossed to be, what prevent you guys (not just electrical guys, but also customers who paid for "fake safety devices") from filing a class action lawsuit?

 

[romex jockey]

Welcome to MH's r6680jc

I suspect the recent IEC adoption of UL standards behind afci inquiries>

http://xn----mtbbcw1ale.xn--p1ai/wp-content/themes/meandr/gost/IEC62606.pdf

To answer your Q, Pashens law makes 240V look more achievable than 120V, but still dubious......

May i suggest the one unbiased document that details afci technology best , written in 2012 by the ex nema afci task force leader, Dr Joe Engel phd EE>>

http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/doc_ieee_combination_afci.pdf

~RJ~

 

[r6680jc]

Welcome to MH's r6680jc

I suspect the recent IEC adoption of UL standards behind afci inquiries>

http://xn----mtbbcw1ale.xn--p1ai/wp-content/themes/meandr/gost/IEC62606.pdf

To answer your Q, Pashens law makes 240V look more achievable than 120V, but still dubious......

May i suggest the one unbiased document that details afci technology best , written in 2012 by the ex nema afci task force leader, Dr Joe Engel phd EE>>

http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/doc_ieee_combination_afci.pdf

~RJ~

Thanks for the links.

Edit:
Do different brand of AFCIs use the same/common microcontroller (and firmware) just like some different brand of GFCIs use same chip?

 

[romex jockey]

Thanks for the links.

Edit:
Do different brand of AFCIs use the same/common microcontroller (and firmware) just like some different brand of GFCIs use same chip?

We really don't know r6,:happysad: we're only aware the functionality of certain brands differs from the rest (GE being one) , and that 'arc detection technology' has assumed a number of firmware players, such as>>>

http://www.zlan.com/products.html#product

~RJ~

 

[r6680jc]

We really don't know r6,:happysad: we're only aware the functionality of certain brands differs from the rest (GE being one) , and that 'arc detection technology' has assumed a number of firmware players, such as>>>

http://www.zlan.com/products.html#product

~RJ~

Well other than the inclusion (and exclusion) of GF functionality (and sensitivity), it seems they at least use different firmwares if their "apparent funcionality" are different, but then again it could be just different filtering before microcontroller.

The pdf doc by Dr Joe Engel is very interesting, especially the arcing waveform (both the voltage and the current waveform), so it's reasonable if AFCIs also "measure" the voltage waveform, though it also makes them more prone to false detection, and they "could detect" arcing on the other circuit and line side, so some problems related to AFCI that I've read are starting to make sense now.

 

[electrofelon]

New member here, not from US of A.

You guys who are in the US or other countries dealing with AFCI, have you guys found any real evidence of AFCI have been preventing fire caused by electrical arc.

LOL no. What they have done is cost electricians and homeowners lots of capital that could have been used for other safety improvements that actually are effective so they have really cost lives.

 

[growler]

If AFCIs don't really work like they're supossed to be, what prevent you guys (not just electrical guys, but also customers who paid for "fake safety devices") from filing a class action lawsuit?

Do AFCIs work ? They must work because they have been designed and tested to meet certain test criteria.

The problem is, how do you prove that a fire should have been prevented ? If you actually had one of the arcs that AFCIs are designed to protect against then it probably would work.

When faced with a problem like this it's good to go back and read "Catch 22".

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is so much hatred in the industry for afci that you will never get everyone to agree on this. Yes, they are expensive but the fact is that in the last 10 years fires and deaths have declined 20% per the US Fire Administration. No not all were a result of afci but it seems certain, IMO anyway, that some of this is due to afci. So if an afci can save a few deaths and a few homes then why not. We spend an incredible amount of money on sprinkler systems and fire alarm systems so why not here.

There are some issue with afci and I hear complaints all the time but mostly they are due to human error-- that is my opinion based on what I have seen. In my experience I don't think we had but 8-10 issues with afci's and that was in past years when the afci's were new.

 

[ggunn]

There is so much hatred in the industry for afci that you will never get everyone to agree on this. Yes, they are expensive but the fact is that in the last 10 years fires and deaths have declined 20% per the US Fire Administration. No not all were a result of afci but it seems certain, IMO anyway, that some of this is due to afci...

Correlation does not prove causation.

 

[ptonsparky]

There is so much hatred in the industry for afci that you will never get everyone to agree on this. Yes, they are expensive but the fact is that in the last 10 years fires and deaths have declined 20% per the US Fire Administration. No not all were a result of afci but it seems certain, IMO anyway, that some of this is due to afci. So if an afci can save a few deaths and a few homes then why not. We spend an incredible amount of money on sprinkler systems and fire alarm systems so why not here.

There are some issue with afci and I hear complaints all the time but mostly they are due to human error-- that is my opinion based on what I have seen. In my experience I don't think we had but 8-10 issues with afci's and that was in past years when the afci's were new.

That is a significant number of fires that would be associated with relatively new residential construction if the drop is attributed directly to AFCI usage.

 

[romex jockey]

If AFCIs don't really work like they're supossed to be, what prevent you guys (not just electrical guys, but also customers who paid for "fake safety devices") from filing a class action lawsuit?

I know of 3 that never make a docket, Paris, California & Canada (restore csa) , who all backed down due to a billion $$$ industries deeper pockets , as well as the prosepct of taking on CSPC,UL,NEMA & NFPA simutaneously.


https://youtu.be/g33ZujxUP4Q

As the IEC has now taken on UL's doctrine , it's your turn....good luck

~RJ~

 

[K8MHZ]

Correlation does not prove causation.

Michigan does not require residential AFCIs. Our fire fatalities went up drastically last year.....but here is why:

Smoking is the leading known cause of fire fatalities in the State of Michigan.

 

[K8MHZ]

I couldn't find any stats for Michigan that covered only fatalities caused by electrical fires.

 

[r6680jc]

There is so much hatred in the industry for afci that you will never get everyone to agree on this. Yes, they are expensive but the fact is that in the last 10 years fires and deaths have declined 20% per the US Fire Administration. No not all were a result of afci but it seems certain, IMO anyway, that some of this is due to afci. So if an afci can save a few deaths and a few homes then why not. We spend an incredible amount of money on sprinkler systems and fire alarm systems so why not here.

There are some issue with afci and I hear complaints all the time but mostly they are due to human error-- that is my opinion based on what I have seen. In my experience I don't think we had but 8-10 issues with afci's and that was in past years when the afci's were new.

In your opinion, even if AFCIs are only capable of detecting and clearing only one specific type of arcing that's unlikely to happen, it's still worth it, since whatever can go wrong, will go wrong?

 

[ptonsparky]

In your opinion, even if AFCIs are only capable of detecting and clearing only one specific type of arcing that's unlikely to happen, it's still worth it, since whatever can go wrong, will go wrong?

We have had AFCIs that stated via the onboard diagnostics that they tripped on an arc. My help was able to find a damaged cord. Did it save a live, or prevent a fire that could not have been done by a standard breaker? IDK.

 

[r6680jc]

Michigan does not require residential AFCIs. Our fire fatalities went up drastically last year.....but here is why:

Smoking is the leading known cause of fire fatalities in the State of Michigan.

Should be added to the warning on the cigarette packs.

 

[r6680jc]

The cost of microcontroller, analog components, and circuit board should be no more than US$ 5, the cost of other parts (selenoid, metal connectors and contacs, wires, enclosure/cover) and the assembling cost should be the around the same as GFCI.

I don't think (I could be wrong on this part) the cost for "research and development" for a device "that only measure waveform" is very expensive.

huge profit there.

 

[480sparky]

The cost of microcontroller, analog components, and circuit board should be no more than US$ 5, the cost of other parts (selenoid, metal connectors and contacs, wires, enclosure/cover) and the assembling cost should be the around the same as GFCI.

I don't think (I could be wrong on this part) the cost for "research and development" for a device "that only measure waveform" is very expensive.

huge profit there.

AFCI's would only be $12 if they weren't required.