Island Outlet Outage - AFCI next?

T
TX+ MASTER#4544 said:
2023 NEC TX
Yeah, you, we, collectively speaking us electricians, will now assume the responsibility if you install a receptacle(s) for an island peninsular etc., see section 210.52(C)(1)(2)(3).

We are required as per 210.52(C)(2)..........to provide for future addition of a receptacle outlet......

OK, So you rough in for future receptacle (s) and you install them as you would normally would do, perhaps at the home owners request or someone else, remember, you are liable should any thing that may happen should there be an accidental spillage on to someone and cause acute harm.

I'm not a legal expert by any means, but I can't tell you what to do.

I know what I'd do, have the owner sign a legal document relieving me of any harm should there be an accidental spillage or harm to some one.

Because the Code only requires to provide for future addition.

Read all of 210.52(C)(1)(2)(3)_(1) (2)(3) for future options.

TX+MASTER#4544
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don_resqcapt19 said:
There is no way that such a document would relieve you from liability. You are knowing installing something in violation of the rules found in the legally adopted electrical code, and no document will change that. In fact having such a document actually increases your liability because it shows that you knowingly violated the adopted code. The plantiff's attorney would tear you apart on the stand. It is also likely that your insurace company would not back you up as you have a document that shows you knew the installation was a violation of the code and a safety hazard.
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I love it you’re going to Jail for doing something that’s now illegal , that 30 days ago was legal and in another 30 days will be legal again. It’s a joke lol
 
AC\DC said:
I love it you’re going to Jail for doing something that’s now illegal , that 30 days ago was legal and in another 30 days will be legal again. It’s a joke lol
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Highly unlikely we are talking about going to jail...I am talking civil liability, but an aggressive state's attorney could make an involuntary manslaughter case if there as a death involved.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Highly unlikely we are talking about going to jail...I am talking civil liability, but an aggressive state's attorney could make an involuntary manslaughter case if there as a death involved.
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I was being sarcastic, but you make a point. Does that mean the cmp should be held responsible since they put the rule in the first place!!!!! Years ago
 
2023 NEC TX

I think they (NFPA ?) have shifted the liability to us, the electrician, to assume some blame in the event some one is injured with an electrical cord draped over the island while still plugged into the outlet and causes a container filled with hot food or other hot substance, as an example, to spill over on to someone.

I think the Consumer Products Safety Commission or some organization was or is behind this Code change.

There are options for installation or non installation for island and peninsular receptacle(s) listed in 210.52(C) (3)(1)-(3).

Again, I don't offer any legal advice. Just use your best judgement.

TX+MASTER#4544
 
infinity said:
I'm curious as to why someone would "install them as you would normally would do," when they're no longer permitted in the side of the island? Isn't that just asking for trouble?
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2023 NEC TX
210.52(C)(2)
........provide for the future.....says Code book. READ THIS
So, MR. and MRS. Homeowner move in and discover they need an outlet there on their counter top in their brand new house.

Oh, look in the phone book and find an electrician, (21st century, ask Cirry) to locate an electrician.
Mr. hot shot electrician appears instantly at front door and is shown the problem.

No, problemo, says the young apprentice. Thars a spore wire inside your cabinet, see, that there is the j-box for it, says sparky the electro- magician.
I hour later, there mysteriously appears a 'plug-in' ready for the happy couple to enjoy their morning cup of java lattea.

Next day, a friendly nabor rings her video bell button and on her hip there she brings with her a young toddler.

Young toddlers are curious and like to pull on things that are dangling from above.

While the nabors chit-chat about the weather, junior is fascinated with that black cord that's dangling over countertop connected to a big crock pot of red beans that are cooking and boiling for dad's lunch today.

Suddenly, well, you know what's gonna hapen next.

Now she's no longer a nabor, she a terrified mom, and rightfully so.

Oh, my, says happy Ms. homeowner, what happen??

Call the electro-magician and ask him what did he do wrong?

Next day, they're looking in the phone book in the alpha letters "A" for legal help, as in attorney.

That young kid that put that plug in did something wrong????
He scalded my little junior!

Not a true story but, you get the picture?
Pray it never happens.

Thanks for reading
Sarcasm and comments cheerfully accepted
TX+MASTER#4544
 
TX+ MASTER#4544 said:
While the nabors chit-chat about the weather, junior is fascinated with that black cord that's dangling over countertop connected to a big crock pot of red beans that are cooking and boiling for dad's lunch today
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The purpose of having the receptacle in the countertop is so that there is no cord dangling for little Johnny to grab.
 
TX+ MASTER#4544 said:
2023 NEC TX

I think they (NFPA ?) have shifted the liability to us, the electrician, to assume some blame in the event some one is injured with an electrical cord draped over the island while still plugged into the outlet and causes a container filled with hot food or other hot substance, as an example, to spill over on to someone.

I think the Consumer Products Safety Commission or some organization was or is behind this Code change.

There are options for installation or non installation for island and peninsular receptacle(s) listed in 210.52(C) (3)(1)-(3).

Again, I don't offer any legal advice. Just use your best judgement.

TX+MASTER#4544
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If you put no receptacle at all on the island or peninsula and the occupant runs an extension cord to power a hot cooking appliance on that counter, they won't try to come after you for not putting a receptacle on/near the counter though? Like say someone trips on the cord and pulls the hot appliance off the counter? That was some of the basis for requiring at least one receptacle in close proximity in the first place.

Guess we are going to need to expand the cordless power tool technology over to kitchen appliances.
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I guess these things are a start in that direction? Only 175 watt rated, no air fryer or popcorn machine can use it but would work for a simple crock pot
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
There are multiple advertisements that are very misleading, approaching the level of fraud, for these products. It is often difficult for the installer or even the inspector to track down what use the product is actually listed for. In this case the information provided included the ETL listing number and from that I could find what use it was actually listed for.

As far as I know the only products listed for countertop use at this time are the Hubbell products.
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It would be interesting to contact Lew and ask for a clarification between their ETL listing and their advertisments and see what they say.

Their products seem well constructed and thought out.
 
infinity said:
Some of these other brands remind me of unlisted generator interlocks where they try to find some language to imply that they are somehow actually listed. In each case their puffery is borderline fraud.
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What's worse are listings that state "Made of listed components" or "UL listed power cord" or similar verbage. So trying to imply that just because a couple of the pieces are listed, that the entire assembly is listed.
 
JMR Construction said:
Maybe an island with two counter heights? I've installed horizontal receptacles in the six inch space in islands where there is both a counter height and a bar height section.
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This how I see it being done, then a Legrand power strip in the riser space. Makes getting at the outlets in the of the strip kinda hard, but it works otherwise.
 
We've been installing receptacle in the islands lower cab, then either a pop up, or this power strip thing cabinet installers provide that goes in the top drawer.
 
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