It's tough out there

[ITO]

Yea i know i wanted to retract it after but I cant stand people giving their work away for nothing. And i know that its a bit ideaological but if we all stand together we wont have to work like jerks.

I am not giving it away for nothing, I am getting something of value. That something is keeping the good labor I spent countless thousands of dollars finding, training, vetting and paying for their mistakes so they can learn the lessons of being good foremen.

When you have good people, its pretty short sighted to lay them off rather than take a job with no profit.

Even if you are a one man shop as long as you make your overhead and pay your own salary, it sure beats the hell out of sitting at home doing nothing.

 

[Mike Lang]

Yea i know i wanted to retract it after but I cant stand people giving their work away for nothing. And i know that its a bit ideaological but if we all stand together we wont have to work like jerks.

I couldn't agree more... I just got my license less than 2 months ago and I'm having a hard time getting jobs. I've sent out plenty of estimates but haven't heard anything. One thing I haven't done yet is lower my prices. I'm hard headed and trying to stay firm. ( I'm lucky I don't have a family to feed) If we all start dropping prices it's going to snowball and get worse and worse, I pray that won't happen to this trade too. I've got several builders asking me right off the batt how much have my prices dropped. $%^& them ! We're the ones with the training and knowledge.

 

[qcroanoke]

I am not giving it away for nothing, I am getting something of value. That something is keeping the good labor I spent countless thousands of dollars finding, training, vetting and paying for their mistakes so they can learn the lessons of being good foremen.

When you have good people, its pretty short sighted to lay them off rather than take a job with no profit.

Even if you are a one man shop as long as you make your overhead and pay your own salary, it sure beats the hell out of sitting at home doing nothing.

Now that I agree with.

 

[CopperTone]

I couldn't agree more... I just got my license less than 2 months ago and I'm having a hard time getting jobs. I've sent out plenty of estimates but haven't heard anything. One thing I haven't done yet is lower my prices. I'm hard headed and trying to stay firm. ( I'm lucky I don't have a family to feed) If we all start dropping prices it's going to snowball and get worse and worse, I pray that won't happen to this trade too. I've got several builders asking me right off the batt how much have my prices dropped. $%^& them ! We're the ones with the training and knowledge.

I agree with you , have been in business for 5 years now - I am about as busy now as I was the first few month in business 5 years ago. A bit scary however, I'm going skiing next week and am going to thoroughly enjoy the holiday season this year and worry about things next month. I'd rather cover my costs at my regular prices and be slow than cover my costs at a discounted price and work my a** off for less money. Things will pick up - maybe not until march or so I think. Hang in there.

 

[LarryFine]

Even if you are a one man shop as long as you make your overhead and pay your own salary, it sure beats the hell out of sitting at home doing nothing.

Better to be busy and broke than bored and broke, eh?




(I agree, too. :wink

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Everybody wears a different brand of shoe. The diversity of our country and the ability to perform our work indepently of each other is one of the strengths of the country. I would be willing to bet that the ones who say do not lower prices are smaller companies. The ones who are willing to lower prices are larger companies.


For those who are employing people, it is not just trying to keep an employee, sometimes it is the fact that one is also trying to help feed that family.

 

[emahler]

my comments were more esoteric than realistic...the point being that we do this to ourselves...as said by others hear, if we stuck together more, we wouldn't have to wholesale our services to keep guys working...because the other EC's wouldn't drop their pants and cause the market to collapse...

so, it's not about 1 EC holding his prices or not...it's about an industry that commits financial suicide at the drop of the hat...

 

[weressl]

I agree with you , have been in business for 5 years now - I am about as busy now as I was the first few month in business 5 years ago. A bit scary however, I'm going skiing next week and am going to thoroughly enjoy the holiday season this year and worry about things next month. I'd rather cover my costs at my regular prices and be slow than cover my costs at a discounted price and work my a** off for less money. Things will pick up - maybe not until march or so I think. Hang in there.

I wonder if big business has it right.

Prices are always adjusted to market conditions, both up and down.

Maybe that's why 'they' became big and you stay small?

 

[satcom]

so, it's not about 1 EC holding his prices or not...it's about an industry that commits financial suicide at the drop of the hat...

Yes indeed. not all electrical business, are the same, some are heavy in the construction end, and others may be in the service sector, one group will be up and down with the overall market contitions, where the others may trend up in a down market, the market is not a stright line where everything goes up and down in the same tick.

It seems this is an industry, that looks at what others do, rather then becomming a leader many like to follow, and if the leader is commiting financial suicide, for some unknown reason they will follow the leader.

 

[MarkyMarkNC]

Agreed. Large companies are lowering their prices, not just because they have the money to ride out the downturn / recession, but because their costs are going down as well

-Commodity items - wire / conduit / romex / fittings - have all come down dramitically in the last few months

-Supply houses are desperate for sales right now, and the large companies can purchase materials at much lower margins than six months or a year ago.

-Most employees are just happy to have a job right now, and are not expecting raises. Employees that do leave can usually be replaced with similarly talented people at reduced cost.

-Capital improvements - new vans / trucks / tools - are being put off for awhile, lowering overhead

-Non-essential employees are being laid off - lowering overhead as well.

For the small company that is lean and mean already, it may be harder to reduce costs on the same level, but everyone should be taking steps now to lower their costs as much as possible.

 

[tonyou812]

I am not giving it away for nothing, I am getting something of value. That something is keeping the good labor I spent countless thousands of dollars finding, training, vetting and paying for their mistakes so they can learn the lessons of being good foremen.

When you have good people, its pretty short sighted to lay them off rather than take a job with no profit.

Even if you are a one man shop as long as you make your overhead and pay your own salary, it sure beats the hell out of sitting at home doing nothing.

Sorry but thats a bunch of Hogwash. Go ask your accountant if he will accept less so he can keep his bookeepers working. It only takes one knuckle head to start the downward spiral. Yesterday I brought a set of prints back to a lady cause she decided to go with a much much lower priced guy and when I walked out she said to me "do you want your proposal back" and i said "no you keep it as a matter of fact here is my card because I think your gonna need it"
Guys like you are never gonna get it. Im sure you guys are good electricians but maybe you should think about a financial coach or maybe go to a Tony Robbins seminar you might learn something.
Its times like this that i wish we (EC) had a little more integrity like the Electrical Union. At least they look out for each other.

 

[tonyou812]

I wonder if big business has it right.

Prices are always adjusted to market conditions, both up and down.

Maybe that's why 'they' became big and you stay small?

your comment is much to vauge to make any sense. Do you mean big companies like GM and Chrysler? Or maybe AIG...Im not sure Im following?

 

[ITO]

Some people have to learn their own lessons, pride was one of my hardest lesson that I still get to repeat every now and then.

Maybe it would make more sense if I put it this way: It cost more to lay off good people then it does to get jobs at cost and just keep them busy.

As for asking your accountant for business advice, keep in mind bean counters have put many a good company out of business. YMMV

 

[tonyou812]

Is it possible that some of you have let your companies get too big? Look at GM.....they sold 9 billion cars last year and they still cant make ends meet. What does that tell you? Im sure you have a lot of great talent on your squad but if the work is not there and you lower your prices to meet your cost how does that help the Industry ? I hear guys roughing houses for 10-15 bucks an outlet, 50 bucks a can. How is that better than lowballers and truckslammers?
ANd its not about pride my friend. ITs about making a profit in a down economy.

 

[iwire]

sure you have a lot of great talent on your squad but if the work is not there and you lower your prices to meet your cost how does that help the Industry ?

I think the answer to that question has a lot to do with who is answering, an employee or employer?

Myself I am an employee, my employer can and does count on me to work hard and be available at almost any time with little notice.

For that dedication I expect my employer to make every effort to keep me employed and not to lay me off at the first sign of a slow down. Now if there really is no work I understand they would have to lay me off, but there is in my mind a big difference between 'no work' and little work for less profit margins.

IMO if you treat people like tools to be used and then put on a shelf till needed again you will end up with bottom feeders and employees that will try to stick it to the company every chance they get. On the other hand if you treat people like people they may in fact go to the mat for you.

JMHO, Bob

 

[tonyou812]

I think the answer to that question has a lot to do with who is answering, an employee or employer?

Myself I am an employee, my employer can and does count on me to work hard and be available at almost any time with little notice.

For that dedication I expect my employer to make every effort to keep me employed and not to lay me off at the first sign of a slow down. Now if there really is no work I understand they would have to lay me off, but there is in my mind a big difference between 'no work' and little work for less profit margins.

IMO if you treat people like tools to be used and then put on a shelf till needed again you will end up with bottom feeders and employees that will try to stick it to the company every chance they get. On the other hand if you treat people like people they may in fact go to the mat for you.

JMHO, Bob

Fair enough and well put sir. But it still stinks when I have to compete with someone charging 15 bucks an outlet. Its tough motivating myself to work for peanuts. I am working on an estimate for two new 4000 square foot homes and I am going to pretend its 1980 for labor and 2008 for material.

 

[ike5547]

But it still stinks when I have to compete with someone charging 15 bucks an outlet.

I doubt the person charging less per outlet feels any better than you do about it.

Put yourself in ITO's position. He has to keep his people working or the organization which he has sacrificed so much for will begin to disintegrate. Capable employees are very difficult to find and harder to keep. Training up employees within an organization is also a very large and difficult investment.

 

[satcom]

I doubt the person charging less per outlet feels any better than you do about it.

Put yourself in ITO's position. He has to keep his people working or the organization which he has sacrificed so much for will begin to disintegrate. Capable employees are very difficult to find and harder to keep. Training up employees within an organization is also a very large and difficult investment.

Might that be the reason, many of the larger contractors are union. they can send the men back to the hall, and just keep the forman on. And remember when you send a union man back his benies are still in place and the higher pay scale allows for some idel hours, where the merit shop guys, are usually working at a scale of half or less.

 

[ike5547]

Might that be the reason, many of the larger contractors are union. they can send the men back to the hall, and just keep the forman on.

That is an advantage. When things pick up again they have a skilled labor pool at their fingertips to draw from.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Tony I believe Ito's position is an awful lot different from yours. You both are not in the same pond. He isn't trying to keep employees busy he is trying to keep his infrastructure together. He wasn't talking about keeping his men busy, he's talking about keeping his foremen busy.

He's not doing that by wiring houses. I believe he's looking at projects that are smaller than what he is normally going after and landing them at prices that will enabling him to keep his infrastructure intact until financing eases to the point where building picks back up in his sector of the market.

There is no reason for a 1 man band to ease prices. Look towards no bid work and market it. Learn to sell on convenience and reliability and not on price. That does mean you'll have to move away from glutted segments of the field.

Ito's best choice may well be move segments slightly to where he can get work and land it at what it can be gotten for. That way when his segment frees up it is not a difficult transition back. Infrastructure is costly to build be it monetarily or time wise.

It's probably easy to tell from prior posts of mine that I'm all for getting every bit of money possible for our work. Right now it is just a good time to look where every bit of money can be gotten from. It may well be from someplace other than where it was a little while ago.