It's tough out there

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ITO

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Bob Badger hit pretty close to home, he does his part and the employer should do theirs. It is very much a two way street; good leaders understand this and good men respect it.

One thing you little guys will learn when you start hiring help is your most valuable resource, the one thing you can never get enough of when times are good and your number one limiting factor in a boom market is your labor and more specifically your foremen. So why would you consider them a liability just because the market has slowed down?

If you are ever lucky enough to have any heavy hitters working for you, it will change how you look at this. You don?t just throw them away because there is no profit in the current market, if you can make overhead, its enough. Just take the long view and later when the market picks up you will be glad you kept your good help and will end up making more money in the long run.

Might that be the reason, many of the larger contractors are union. they can send the men back to the hall, and just keep the forman on. And remember when you send a union man back his benies are still in place and the higher pay scale allows for some idel hours, where the merit shop guys, are usually working at a scale of half or less.

Yes but you still pay unemployment. I would rather just take cheap work and keep them working. Besides I worked hard finding the good ones, why would I send the back?
(note I do trim out the fat in lean times, but the keepers stay)

That is an advantage. When things pick up again they have a skilled labor pool at their fingertips to draw from.

They have a pool alright but to call it a ?skilled labor pool? is a stretch. If all I had to do was call the hall and say, ?Send me 10 first class foremen to run big jobs? and got what I asked for, I would probably die of shock. It is what it is and not all Electricians are created equal, and not all good electricians are leaders.
 

emahler

Senior Member
Ito, you do it for the same reason everyone else does..."you can't fight city hall"....

every other contractor is gonna drop his pants, so I better...hey, we do it too...we all do..

but, the sad fact, we are city hall...and we do it to ourselves...if no one dropped their pants, the work would still get done, just at a higher price...

if it's any consolation, apparently the plumbers are beginning to follow us...must mean we are right:D LOL
 

aline

Senior Member
Location
Utah
The sad truth is there are a lot of contractors that don't charge enough when times are good let alone when times are bad.

Some of them post on these forums talking about what crooks other contractors are for charging such high prices and how they charge half of what these guys charge or how they can charge half of what the big box stores charge etc. They just want to get by and be able to go trout fishing on sunday.

Some are making little or no profit and are just getting by during the good times. When times are bad they lower their prices making things worse. Now they are operating at a loss if they weren't already. They should have been trying to sell their jobs for as much as possible during the good times and banking some money away for the bad.

Instead they're happy just getting by during the good times so when the bad times come they can't even get by. It's hard to enjoy yourself trout fishing on sunday when you're house is being forclosed on.
 
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tonyou812

Senior Member
Location
North New Jersey
You all made some good points and have helped me understand your stance a little. But Im still a little sore at the last few bids that I thought (and was told) were in the bag. Two big house renos (very close to home) and a country club reno and a couple of smaller kit/baths. I spent a lot of time going through the numbers even contemplated using cheaper material to win the job. But ive managed to price myself out. And for the life of me I just dont understand how these fellas are doing it. Im starting to think I might have to hire a couple of Amigos (as Ive seen about a hundred of them standing in Morristown) just to compete on price.
 

tonyou812

Senior Member
Location
North New Jersey
The sad truth is there are a lot of contractors that don't charge enough when times are good let alone when times are bad.

Some of them post on these forums talking about what crooks other contractors are for charging such high prices and how they charge half of what these guys charge or how they can charge half of what the big box stores charge etc. They just want to get by and be able to go trout fishing on sunday.

Some are making little or no profit and are just getting by during the good times. When times are bad they lower their prices making things worse. Now they are operating at a loss if they weren't already. They should have been trying to sell their jobs for as much as possible during the good times and banking some money away for the bad.

Instead they're happy just getting by during the good times so when the bad times come they can't even get by. It's hard to enjoy yourself trout fishing on sunday when you're house is being forclosed on.

You can say that again. About 6 months ago another EC contractor told me that I was ripping people off charging 2700 for a 200 amp service change. I almost spit my coffee out when he told me that. And I was working in a house that he roughed, but didnt want to wire the boiler zones. Imagine that, another EC telling me that. You know for me a 200 amp service change can be a lot of work and a very long day.Not to mention getting the permit, and waiting for the inspector. And sometimes I have to make it a two dayyer so I can properly mark out the panel. How could I possibly charge less than 2500 and make some money? Jez most plumbers charge 8-900 to swap out a water heater and that takes them a couple of hours. My plumber friend charges 2800 to change out a boiler and that doesnt include the boiler. Oh well I guess Ill be doing alot more small stuff in the new year. You guys are making it hard for me to become the next "MR ELECTRIC"
 
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satcom

Senior Member
You can say that again. About 6 months ago another EC contractor told me that I was ripping people off charging 2700 for a 200 amp service change. I almost spit my coffee out when he told me that. And I was working in a house that he roughed, but didnt want to wire the boiler zones. Imagine that, another EC telling me that. You know for me a 200 amp service change can be a lot of work and a very long day.Not to mention getting the permit, and waiting for the inspector. And sometimes I have to make it a two dayyer so I can properly mark out the panel. How could I possibly charge less than 2500 and make some money? Jez most plumbers charge 8-900 to swap out a water heater and that takes them a couple of hours. My plumber friend charges 2800 to change out a boiler and that doesnt include the boiler. Oh well I guess Ill be doing alot more small stuff in the new year. You guys are making it hard for me to become the next "MR ELECTRIC"

Tony, I just went to a meeting of cabinet builders, and you know how that market is here in jersey. Well listing to a group of owners of small shops, they were complaining having to operate with a small $5000 a week salary. These are guys running 3 and 4 man operations.
 

emahler

Senior Member
You can say that again. About 6 months ago another EC contractor told me that I was ripping people off charging 2700 for a 200 amp service change. I almost spit my coffee out when he told me that. And I was working in a house that he roughed, but didnt want to wire the boiler zones. Imagine that, another EC telling me that. You know for me a 200 amp service change can be a lot of work and a very long day.Not to mention getting the permit, and waiting for the inspector. And sometimes I have to make it a two dayyer so I can properly mark out the panel. How could I possibly charge less than 2500 and make some money? Jez most plumbers charge 8-900 to swap out a water heater and that takes them a couple of hours. My plumber friend charges 2800 to change out a boiler and that doesnt include the boiler. Oh well I guess Ill be doing alot more small stuff in the new year. You guys are making it hard for me to become the next "MR ELECTRIC"

wanna cry? yesterday we swapped out a 100 gal gas commercial water heater...total material of $4000....total labor of 6 man hours (this was for 2 men, 3 hours each)...total price to customer $7300...and we were low bid:D
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
wanna cry? yesterday we swapped out a 100 gal gas commercial water heater...total material of $4000....total labor of 6 man hours (this was for 2 men, 3 hours each)...total price to customer $7300...and we were low bid:D

I'm crying.

If I could buy a plumbing and refrigeration license, life would be good. :)
Or just move to Pennsylvania. :roll:
 

emahler

Senior Member
I'm crying.

If I could buy a plumbing and refrigeration license, life would be good. :)
Or just move to Pennsylvania. :roll:

yeah, it's been working out well for us...and i didn't move to PA:D....

actually we didn't buy anything...we brought in people who have the licenses and experience...
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
yeah, it's been working out well for us...and i didn't move to PA:D....

actually we didn't buy anything...we brought in people who have the licenses and experience...


The thing is though, how long can an apartment complex or restaurant be without their 100 gallon hot water heater? About 3 milliseconds.

People will live with electrical problems until they are in melt down stage. :roll:
 

tonyou812

Senior Member
Location
North New Jersey
The thing is though, how long can an apartment complex or restaurant be without their 100 gallon hot water heater? About 3 milliseconds.

People will live with electrical problems until they are in melt down stage. :roll:

But even so youll still get a bunch of knuckle heads doing the emergency work for discounted rates shrugging their shoulders saying "what .....? you know the economy, I need the work,...blah blah blah and voiala lowballer is born.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
But even so youll still get a bunch of knuckle heads doing the emergency work for discounted rates shrugging their shoulders saying "what .....? you know the economy, I need the work,...blah blah blah and voiala lowballer is born.


Very true Tony...sad but very true. And there are plenty of savvy people who are lining up and willing to take advantage of the lowballers too, and I can't really blame them one bit. I would to if I had the need.
 

emahler

Senior Member
The thing is though, how long can an apartment complex or restaurant be without their 100 gallon hot water heater? About 3 milliseconds.

People will live with electrical problems until they are in melt down stage. :roll:

this customer is a dialysis clinic...it's even more important there...

i should also add, the $4000 material cost included the supply house dropping the new heater in place in the building and removing the old unit...we simply disconnected and reconnected the units...
 

emahler

Senior Member
As of late its not uncommon to hear me mummble "I should of been a f@$%ing plumber".

plumbers are starting to get stupid too...just talked to the plumber that does dialysis clinics with us (we don't do the installs for this dialysis company)...we have another clinic coming up...his price was $128,000 with about $95,000 in direct costs (material and labor)...another plumber bid the job at $108,000....

so, the grass is always greener...:D
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
i should also add, the $4000 material cost included the supply house dropping the new heater in place in the building and removing the old unit...we simply disconnected and reconnected the units...

Hourly rates are better in P/HVAC/R work, big ticket items for nice markup.

I should have been a plumber. :) Or not...I think I'll stick with one trade. I'm bad enough at electrical as it is. :D
 

emahler

Senior Member
Hourly rates are better in P/HVAC/R work, big ticket items for nice markup.

I should have been a plumber. :) Or not...I think I'll stick with one trade. I'm bad enough at electrical as it is. :D

don't look at me...all i know is that cold is on the left and hot in on the right....:D
 
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