K & t...

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growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I'm interested in would you leave this or would you "try" to correct or upgrade and if so to what extent and why.


First I don't like to take chances so I'm not about to tell anyone this is safe.

Second I look for jobs to make money on and hopefully help out the homeowner in the long run. So far every house that I have rewired the owners have been happy. The good things is that they don't need to worry about it any longer.

Third is that I try to look at the overall job and not just the electrical. I see an attic that needs cleaned up. and a lot of wasted storage space. There is no insulation, waste of heating dollars. The attic probably needs vent fans.


First the place needs cleaned then rewired and insulated and vented. Then if the owner wants they can screw down some plywood and a drop down stairway and end up with some nice storage space.

It's true that not everyone can afford this type of expense but these are not the customers I'm looking for. I look for people that do have money to spend because they are easier to collect from.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
I would like to get some opinions about the following photos.

Do you see anything inherently hazardous in any of the following? I'm interested in would you leave this or would you "try" to correct or upgrade and if so to what extent and why.

Is any of this in contact with insulation?

394.12(5); also read the commentary in the handbook.
 

mtfallsmikey

Senior Member
Sorry the first two pictures the trusses in the background look black from fire. After further review they just look black.



Last PM from you was 10/3.


Looks like a roof leak...this once must have had a standing-seam metal roof. I wish I had some pics from years ago to show how neat and tidy some of the K & T jobs were one in my area...My brother and I have a collection of old Buss porcelain fuse holders and knife switches. I did not search this question, but....do any of you recommend the use of an AFCI on knob and tube circuits?
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I'm interested in would you leave this or would you "try" to correct or upgrade and if so to what extent and why.
Those are four excellent photos.

I commonly work with housing stock that spans from being first "electrified" some years to decades after the house was built, to being wired during original construction. This housing stock has been inspected by electrical AHJs that were first called into existence, by State statute, at the very beginning of the 1900s.

I've seen similar installations, to those in these photos, that were done as part of the original electrification, and, also, as part of subsequent branch circuit extensions.

I agree that the K&T - BX transition is missing supports, which implies that it was never inspected at the time of assembly. In my experience, the BX extension may date back easily into the 1930s, and was not required to be grounded in this application, unless the Utilization Equipment supplied required grounding.

In my opinion, the first (left hand) photo also shows splices (flying splices) that are missing supports.

In the areas that I work in, some areas have local ordinance that requires removal of exposed (attic & basement) K&T that is in excess of a maximum of 18" in length. The 18" length allowed to remain provides, generally, for easy installation of a junction box and the transition to another wiring method, such as NM. - - - This ordinance is invoked upon Code Compliance and service upgrades. A Home Inspector's observations don't invoke the ordinance.

As for my opinion, the attic is exposed to additional temperature extremes and humidity swings that provide greater environmental stress on the common K&T conductor insulation. Careful examination will determine brittleness, if aged enough. Any use of the attic by the occupants adds an additional stressor, depending upon the use(s) and proximity to the K&T.

After explaining the local ordinance guidelines, I'll offer my assessment of current state of the insulation and its exposure to additional stress. If the assembly is much like that shown in the right hand two photos in the OP, I would classify it essentially pristine, and if the insulation is still supple and the area is isolated from use by the occupants, then there is still no particular risk, IMO.

My last observation, with respect to insulation, is, that if future insulation is added against any exposed K&T in this attic, that the K&T should be protected (not practical, IMO) or replaced with modern methods. If the existing insulation was placed prior to the late '80s NEC change that created the requirement to protect K&T from embedding in thermal insulation, then the install, as pictured met the NEC of the period. Many times, placing J-boxes at the drops into the walls below is all that is needed.
 

MarkyMarkNC

Senior Member
Location
Raleigh NC
That has got to be the worst looking K&T install I've ever seen. Most of the K&T installs I've seen have been extremely neat and square.

I would check the insulation for cracking or heat damage in all the exposed areas. There was a really good article someone linked to here last February about a research project UL did on aging wire. If I recall correctly, their conclusion was that K&T could be expected to be at the end of its expected lifetime. The copper wire itself is usually in decent shape, but the old rubberized insulation contained a sulfur vulcanizing agent that over time will break down.
 

Power Tech

Senior Member
You see, living in So Cal and doing work in Pasadena which is full of K&T.

Some of that stuff will break loose 2 feet of insulation just touching it.

I hate that stuff. No ground. I know it's a classic.

I like to do clean work. I am not lazy and do not ponder when I see JUNK.

I would fish it throughout the house, plugs, switches, everything.

If I found a box in the attic with no cover,. I would put a cover on it.

If I found a splice, I would put it in a box.

Isn't it time to get rid of the 78 Dotsun. Excuse me it's a classic.
 
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Power Tech

Senior Member
The only hazard I see - is the debris... There are a number of support issues, (See 394.30) the second pic of the monkey face in mid-air supported by it's splices is a good example of a bad addition, and change of method... Otherwise, you should physically inspect for dry or brittle insulation. Specifically conductors that cross should have a porcilin tube, lume, and separation. If the attic is to remain accessible, I would suggest J-boxes with NM or conduit to feed down to branch extentions down the walls, and refeed of the lighting in their original boxes. In this way - if you bring a new circuit(s) up from the panel that feeds the K&T it can all get a ground local for other up-grades as they occur. This method also allows the walls to remain if they are not being opened and can allow load on the circuits to be reduced if necessary. You would need to fully trace and isolate portions of the circuit and test to be sure new break up's in the circuit are what is required... In this way they can insulate most all of the attic, and any remaining K&T can be put under plywood barriers, and insulate to the box. And anything going down the walls can stay as is. (Some areas even allow it to be insulated under certain conditions)

To be clear once again - telling cusomers that their house will burn down (any second) because of the mere presence of K&T is untrue. And THAT was that was the heat on the topic.....

An attic full of roofing debris - which could stand a laborer with a vaccum to expose the rest of it... But much of the wiring is K&T. (Knob and Tube covered in article 394, a single conductor wiring method popular from the 1890's to - in certain places the early 1970's) With what appears in at least one of the pictures - an AC cable tapped into a run of K&T in the 1950's. Although an acceptable practice at the time of install - it was done incorrectly - note the lack of support within proper distance from the splices. I would check to see if the casing of the AC cable is grounded - it may have been done in a wall to any cold water pipe - an accepted practice for many years.

CHeck out this link


To set the record straight I was POed because you insulted my integrity by calling me a Fraud and a Liar. That is what the heat is about.:mad:

IYO It's fine.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Some of that stuff will break loose 2 feet of insulation just touching it.
That's a sure sign of overheating, probably from overload, and should be replaced.

I hate that stuff. No ground. I know it's a classic.
In all seriousness, what percentage of your household electrical and electronic equipment has grounding plugs?

When I see a 2-wire wired house, I recommend leaving what works alone, and adding new circuits where needed for new equipment, such as a computer or AV system, and of course, kitchen appliances.

I like to do clean work. I am not lazy and do not ponder when I see JUNK.
No argument there. But, do you automatically replace every installation, regardless of its having been compliant when installed?

I would fish it throughout the house, plugs, switches, everything.

If I found a bos in the attic with no cover,. I would put a cover on it.

If I found a splice, I would put it in a box.
All good points. Even about the bos. ;)

Isn't it time to get rid of the 78 Dotsun. Excuse me it's a classic.
Especially a Z-car or Skyline. :)
 

hurk27

Senior Member
We have allot of this stuff around here. I will inform a homeowner about it, and give them an assessment of what condition I find it in, but the ultimate choice is theirs as they are paying the bill.

How would you like to take your car to a garage to get a tuneup, and the mechanic tries to tell you you have to buy new safety equipment so your car will be safer? care to install a new airbag system, and while your at it, through in some anti-lock brakes.:roll:

Oh wait there the emission system, it needs to be brought up to the latest design.:roll:


I know, I know, another car analogy:cool:
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Wayne

I do not think that a car analogy can be compared to electrical safety. I understand the 'update' argument.

I agree that K&T can be safe. The problem is that I have never seen a current installation that is safe. Also some insurance companies will not write homeowners for a home with K&T.
 

Power Tech

Senior Member
I give the HO a written report stating the wiring is over 50 years old.

What do you think, I strong arm the customer into changing it?

I do not automatically change everything I see. I get approval first for all work. I have had customers say do what you can. I have slid shrink wrap over it, tapped it up, you name it.

I have a customer who restores classics. It does cost more to restore than to buy new. After that you will still not have air bags and anti lock brakes. Some people like old cars. Some people like old wiring.

Another car analogy: I said to a mechanic about an old car---They don't make um like this anymore. He said, "no they make them a lot better".

I hope my mechanic would be a friend and tell me this car is JUNK./ I am tired of working on it. Isn't it time to move up.

I just find it very hard (as a contractor even touching that stuff) to splice into it. Once you do, you are taking on the liability of that run. I don't use my stripper. I give a twist with the side cutter. Most of that stuff was hemp / tar covered. Burns good.

I know that is debatable but, in court a lawyer will make a postage stamp look like a billboard.

I cover every bos I see.:D
 

Power Tech

Senior Member
Wayne

I do not think that a car analogy can be compared to electrical safety. I understand the 'update' argument.

I agree that K&T can be safe. The problem is that I have never seen a current installation that is safe. Also some insurance companies will not write homeowners for a home with K&T.

Why not? If an electrician has to be certified , why not a brake installer.

I don't want the first guy that passes by on the street changing my breaks. Do you?

Once you do something the bullet is out of the barrel.

Inch is as good as a mile.

Don't get me started.:D
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Wayne

I do not think that a car analogy can be compared to electrical safety. I understand the 'update' argument.

I agree that K&T can be safe. The problem is that I have never seen a current installation that is safe. Also some insurance companies will not write homeowners for a home with K&T.

Really, cars kill more people on the roads than electricity ever will, but you see, NTSC, and EPA can't get around the laws in the Constitution, so how does inspectors think they can.

on the other hand yes Insurance company's can refuse to cover things like this, and banks can refuse to loan money for things like this, but these are choices, not law enforcement, just like it is a choice for a homeowner to want to leave it in place if they so chose.

Don't put me in a padded room, It makes me cranky:D
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
I will not add to K&T , i will if possable make a repair if i feel it is safe when finished. That is JIM'S rule not NEC. Yes rewires are costly but not near as much as replacing the burned down house and furniture. Most home owners will spend to keep the family reasonably safe but a slum lord section 8 landlord usually could care less. Many hope they burn to collect the insurance. If you simply can not afford a rewire then try to get the heavy loads replaced.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I will not add to K&T , i will if possible make a repair if i feel it is safe when finished. That is JIM'S rule not NEC. Yes rewires are costly but not near as much as replacing the burned down house and furniture. Most home owners will spend to keep the family reasonably safe but a slum lord section 8 landlord usually could care less. Many hope they burn to collect the insurance. If you simply can not afford a rewire then try to get the heavy loads replaced.

I agree, and also will not add to any K&T existing, And I also let the homeowners know of any hazards, that I might find.

But as far as landlords and rental property goes, I feel that these are part of a business and should be periodically inspected, I know HUD sure does, so it must be legal, and I don't know why in many city's it's not done, other then a tight budget.

But that is the difference between privet and public, business are public, and can be inspected.
 
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e57

Senior Member
To set the record straight I was POed because you insulted my integrity by calling me a Fraud and a Liar. That is what the heat is about.:mad:

IYO It's fine.
Here we go again - semantics... Telling someone there home will burn down simply because there is K&T in it - is a lie...

Which does not make you a liar - just misinformed - because you believe that to be true... The day you come to your senses, and still say it - then and only then will you be a liar... ;)

Since most of the housing stock build prior to the 40's was wired in it - if wired, and wired with it when it was - and they all did not burn down makes the standard you set the last thread on the topic - wrong... And willingly or not - telling someone that their home will burn to the ground because of the presence of K&T is an act of fraud. Which also does not make you a fraud...

There are also people out there that tell customers their home is in danger just due to the fact that they have fuses, or FPE panels. Then again - the Ford Pinto was on the road for a long time before it was doomed to hysteria... And Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction we still have yet to find.... Hype...

My point is you need to be objective - a building with any energized wire is an electrical fire hazard... Even one with all of the wiring in MI cable. To what degree? Truthfully I feel homes with ungrounded AC cable, and early cloth versions of NM cable would be more of a hazard than K&T.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
I am sure i am not alone in seeing rental that is not safe or to code. Land lord only wants problem fixed to work again and it is not my job to inspect. I will mark on bill any hazards i seen. That covers my a-- and my boss
 
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