KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

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Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Originally posted by websparky:
What matters is if it is a kitchen!
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I do not understand, this same space in an office would not be required to have any outlets.

Non-dwelling unit kitchens have no required outlets.

If you did put outlets they would have to be GFCIs

[ January 02, 2004, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Hi Bob,

I'm glad you asked!

If I were the inspector or plans examiner on this job, I would be sure to require that the kitchen countertop in this non dwelling unit be treated with no less of a minimum than the code requires for a dwelling unit.

Quite frankly, I enjoy the code fine points as much as anyone else here but, there are times we get so wrapped up in the minute details that we overlook the spirit and intent of the code.

Why wouldn't most any reasonable person want to have enough recepticles over a countertop? As Pierre pointed out, they would need to be GFCI's reguarless if there were one per six foot or the code minimum for dwellings.

That's what I was alluding to in my first post. We sometimes overlook the trees for the forest!
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Originally posted by websparky:

If I were the inspector or plans examiner on this job, I would be sure to require that the kitchen countertop in this non dwelling unit be treated with no less of a minimum than the code requires for a dwelling unit.
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Dave you can not do that, you can only enforce the code.

Do I think the outlets should be there of course I do!

Take a look at the second or third post in this thread.

By me
If it is a counter for cooking do the firefighters a favor and put the darn outlets in.

It would look real bad to have these guys having to use plug strips in a brand new station.
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Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

What about a prison - is that commercial or dwelling :D

Again there are areas that are left up the the AHJ, in this case that would be the building official, and again because there are many building officials, I bet there would be many different answers.
So lets not argue the point of if it is or is not a dwelling, lets stick to what we are good at ... which is ... I am not too sure :D :D :D

Pierre
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Let's start with Csayre and end with him unless someone can show me where it says in the 2002NEC that a "Fire Station" is anything other than a Commercial bldg. 210.52 says "Dwelling Unit Recetptacle Outlets". 210.52B says Small Applianc es. We are stil talking about Dwelling units. The only code article I can see applying to "Fire Stations" is 210.8B3. It says nothing about spacing. If it is on the print then it is ok. Just make sure it is also code.


Andrew
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Andrew, I think the point is you can have a dwelling unit within a fire station.
I'll reiterate to look at the definition of "Dwelling Unit". It says nothing about a house, home, residence or apartment. It just describes the components that make up a dwelling unit.
I also disagree with the fire station not having housekeeping facilities. If you have the provisions for people to sleep, eat and relax, even if for a day at a time, I feel this fulfills the description of a dwelling unit.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Originally posted by charlie b:
[QB] I must beg leave to disagree. A bed does not a dwelling unit make. Nor does a bed and a stove.
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Thanks Charlie....I love when you talk like Yoda! :D LMAO

I don't see a dwelling unit here. I see a mixed occupancie building containing a group "R" and a group "B" occupancy. The building code (IBC) would call some of the fire station area a "sleeping unit", but not a dwelling. If you were to apply the dwelling unit provisions of the NEC to the sleeping area, would it be fair to apply the dwelling unit provisions of all other codes to this area? I think not, although that may just be my opinion.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Am i using the NEC wrong.I thought as we read the code and a name of an item was used(dwelling unit),that we were to then go to article 100 for the NEC definitions not websters or any place else.Am i right or wrong ?
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Jim: Your point is a valid one, but by definition if there were more than 3 fire fighters in this building, you would have a multifamily dwelling unit. That is obviosly not the case.

I don't know how to answer your question, Jim. Maybe when it comes to determining use and occupancy of a building the building code should prevail.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

by definition if there were more than 3 fire fighters in this building, you would have a multifamily dwelling unit. That is obviosly not the case.
Ok just where did you read that at?
My copy says (for use of one or more persons)
I will agree that this is one of those places that local AHJ will need to make the final call.I would not wire it at all until i talked with them as this could go either way.
Personally i think we could try to help these guys out with a better kitchen,they do help save our lives.Will adding a few receptacles add that much to the total project?
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Motels - No, no kitchen in each room
hotels - No, no kitchen in each room
prison - No, has a cafeteria
hospital - No, has a cafeteria
nursing home - No, has a cafeteria
bed&breakfast -Yes
inpatient clinic (mental) -??? I'd say no.
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Is a cafeteria not a similar area 210.52 b 1 ?
Also def. of dwelling unit says (provisions for cooking and sanitation)
We need a lawyer!!!!
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Speedy where in the world are you from?
Maybe a cheep motel or hotel might not have rooms with a kitchen in it, but we have some here that are just like a house. I know many that rent by the month in slow season's just like a apartment. And why wouldn't a place that has a cafeteria fit the definition of a dwelling it has space for eating, living, and sleeping, and permanent provisions for cooking and sanitation. All of these can be found in the places I listed. OK I-Wire a'm I still good LOL :p
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

Sorry, never been to one of them there fancy hotels.
You are correct though in that even though it has a cafeteria a place like a nursing home does fit all the provisions. Though it's a commercial establishment. I guess so is a fire station.


I got Rabinowitz, Rabinowitz & Rabinowitz on the other line....
Anyone remember "All in the Family"?
 
Re: KITCHEN COUNTER SPACE RECEPTACLES

YEP and archy was right.
Im not predjudice but if i need a lawyer i will look under G
Hope they buy homeowners insurance at that firestation,cause they dam sure have a house
By the way them rooms that are rented by the hour won't have cooking facilities LOL

[ January 06, 2004, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
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