kitchen hood

[stickboy1375]

So as an inspector you would take this stance? Period? Or would you discuss this with the EC?

If it were straight forward there would be no debate!

It is straight forward, not sure why its hard. Just read what the section says and and you'll be fine.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Oh, what a tangled web we weave ..... especially when the code panel crosses over into design issues!

OK, as I see it ....
An "SABC" is defined as a 20 amp circuit serving the required receptacles, as well as receptacles serving the counters. If a receptacle is not a required one, and it does not serve the counter ... it need not be on an SABC. (Why do you think they put in the 'refrigerator exception?)

Place a receptacle on the wall, more than 20" high, and not only need it not be on an SABC - it is forbidden to have it on one. (again, look to the 'clock exception') We can also have a lively discussion about receptacles under the counter, but that's for another thread.

My point is that a range hood is too high to plug into an SABC, and we're not allowed 'any other outlets' on an SABC.

Regarding cords and range hoods .... Most hoods I've seen do not come with cords. While I personally have no issues with a properly attached cord, I understand the position that such hoods are intended for hard-wiring only. An inspector that insisted on your adding a cord to such a hood is exceeding his authority, and maybe asking you to violate the 'listing and labeling.'

If you're going to run a dedicated circuit, a 20-amp circuit for a 1-amp fan is a code violation. You can't go over 15. I'd even use a 5-amp breaker. That's for a hard-wired hood. Code has already made the decisions for us regarding cord-connected hoods.

Talk about appliance garages does introduce a few other complications, and IMO deserves its' own thread. Simply put, once there's a garage in place, the remaining 'counter' might not be deep enough to officially count as a 'counter' requiring receptacles ... and, thus, cannot be served by an SABC.

Would you please show me 'where' SABC is defined? Not in my book.

20 AMP circuits are ran for future microwaves and range hoods are plugged into the receptacle here all the time.

Give me an example of an additional SABC as allowed per:

(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed
in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be
supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits,
either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply
receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms
specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small-appliance branch
circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the
kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). No small appliance
branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.

Is a micro a small appliance? I think so. Meets 100 definition of appliance. I think that means it requires a SABC. Unless it is a large appliance as defined in the NEC. Oops that's not in there.

 

[stickboy1375]

Would you please show me 'where' SABC is defined? Not in my book.

20 AMP circuits are ran for future microwaves and range hoods are plugged into the receptacle here all the time.

Give me an example of an additional SABC as allowed per:

(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed
in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be
supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits,
either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply
receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms
specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small-appliance branch
circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the
kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). No small appliance
branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.

Is a micro a small appliance? I think so. Meets 100 definition of appliance. I think that means it requires a SABC. Unless it is a large appliance as defined in the NEC. Oops that's not in there.

You are killing me here... could you please just read 210.52 (B)(2)

 

[jxofaltrds]

It is straight forward, not sure why its hard. Just read what the section says and and you'll be fine.

As I asked above give me an example of an additional SABC and where you would place the outlets.

 

[jxofaltrds]

You are killing me here...

Best response to my questions?

 

[stickboy1375]

20 AMP circuits are ran for future microwaves and range hoods are plugged into the receptacle here all the time.

Same here, but they are not SABC's per section 210.52(B)

Give me an example of an additional SABC as allowed per:

(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed
in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be
supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits,
either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply
receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms
specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small-appliance branch
circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the
kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). No small appliance
branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.

If I ran three circuits to the countertop instead of the required minimum 2....

Is a micro a small appliance? I think so. Meets 100 definition of appliance. I think that means it requires a SABC. Unless it is a large appliance as defined in the NEC. Oops that's not in there.

Yes, a micro is a small appliance, but if it is fixed, it cant be supplied to the SABC as required by 210.52(B)(1) and (2)

 

[stickboy1375]

Best response to my questions?

I already stated to read 210.52 (B)(1) and (2) it really can't be simpler...

 

[stickboy1375]

As I asked above give me an example of an additional SABC and where you would place the outlets.

If I ran 3 counter circuits... if i ran a separate dining room circuit... etc... etc...

Im really confused on where your confusion is coming from, but you are WAY over thinking this.

 

[kwired]

Oh, what a tangled web we weave ..... especially when the code panel crosses over into design issues!

I agree with that, I also see where a certain amount of design issue needs to be infringed on in this case, as ensuring there is sufficient power available to prevent the user from providing other possibly unsafe ways to get the desired power is kind of the bottom line here.

OK, as I see it ....
An "SABC" is defined as a 20 amp circuit serving the required receptacles, as well as receptacles serving the counters. If a receptacle is not a required one, and it does not serve the counter ... it need not be on an SABC. (Why do you think they put in the 'refrigerator exception?)

There can be some confusion as to these required receptacles. If you have a wall the only required outlets is one if the wall is more than 24" and two if more than 12 feet, or if long wall every 12 feet and within 6 feet of ends. Even a counter top the only required receptacles is one if counter is more than 12" wide and two if 48" wide and only one every 48" with one within 24" of ends if a really long counter. All others that fall in this region are not required but most would agree are intended to be included in what is allowed to be on a SABC.

Place a receptacle on the wall, more than 20" high, and not only need it not be on an SABC - it is forbidden to have it on one. (again, look to the 'clock exception') We can also have a lively discussion about receptacles under the counter, but that's for another thread.

I think I see what you are saying but where do you get 20" from? If you are saying what I think you are saying 20" should be changed to 5-1/2 feet as mentioned in 210.52(4). - Ok maybe you got it from 210.52(C)(5), but that is saying 20" above a countertop I took what you said to mean 20" above the floor.

My point is that a range hood is too high to plug into an SABC, and we're not allowed 'any other outlets' on an SABC.

It is (typically) above 5-1/2 feet it does not serve a countertop, and is often inside a cabinet. Again back to the very first part of 210.52.

Regarding cords and range hoods .... Most hoods I've seen do not come with cords. While I personally have no issues with a properly attached cord, I understand the position that such hoods are intended for hard-wiring only. An inspector that insisted on your adding a cord to such a hood is exceeding his authority, and maybe asking you to violate the 'listing and labeling.'

If you're going to run a dedicated circuit, a 20-amp circuit for a 1-amp fan is a code violation. You can't go over 15. I'd even use a 5-amp breaker. That's for a hard-wired hood. Code has already made the decisions for us regarding cord-connected hoods.

True - for a dedicated circuit. Put it on a 15 amp breaker - if someone installs a microwave/hood unit it only has a 15 amp cord cap on it and should work on a 15 amp breaker

Talk about appliance garages does introduce a few other complications, and IMO deserves its' own thread. Simply put, once there's a garage in place, the remaining 'counter' might not be deep enough to officially count as a 'counter' requiring receptacles ... and, thus, cannot be served by an SABC.

probably is for another thread.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Same here, but they are not SABC's per section 210.52(B)





If I ran three circuits to the countertop instead of the required minimum 2....



Yes, a micro is a small appliance, but if it is fixed, it cant be supplied to the SABC as required by 210.52(B)(1) and (2)

Show me where it prohibits a 'fixed' micro from having its own SABC.

Exception: Receptacle outlets shall not be required on a wall
directly behind a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink
in the installation described in Figure 210.52(C)(1).

But I could put one there off the SABC serving the counter tops.

Could I plug a micro into it? Yes. Can I put it on its own SABC? Yes.



Where does it prohibit SABC in cabinets? I can put one in a pantry behind a closed door and that's OK but in a cabinet is not?

 

[stickboy1375]

Show me where it prohibits a 'fixed' micro from having its own SABC.

Exception: Receptacle outlets shall not be required on a wall
directly behind a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink
in the installation described in Figure 210.52(C)(1).

But I could put one there off the SABC serving the counter tops.

Could I plug a micro into it? Yes. Can I put it on its own SABC? Yes.

View attachment 7340

Where does it prohibit SABC in cabinets? I can put one in a pantry behind a closed door and that's OK but in a cabinet is not?

Im not going to answer every scenario you dream up, the answers are all in 210.52 (B)

 

[stickboy1375]

Show me where it prohibits a 'fixed' micro from having its own SABC.

210.52(B)(2) This would be SOOOOOO much easier if you read the two sections FIRST, then came back with questions...

 

[kwired]

Show me where it prohibits a 'fixed' micro from having its own SABC.

Exception: Receptacle outlets shall not be required on a wall
directly behind a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink
in the installation described in Figure 210.52(C)(1).

But I could put one there off the SABC serving the counter tops.

Could I plug a micro into it? Yes. Can I put it on its own SABC? Yes.

View attachment 7340

Where does it prohibit SABC in cabinets? I can put one in a pantry behind a closed door and that's OK but in a cabinet is not?

SABC is prohibited in cabinets. But you have to derive it from more than one section.
210.52(B)

(B) Small Appliances.

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.


210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:

(1)

Part of a luminaire or appliance, or

(2)

Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or

(3)

Located within cabinets or cupboards, or

(4)

Located more than 1.7 m (5? ft) above the floor


a receptacle in a cabinet is not a 210.52 covered receptacle, and SABC required/permitted receptacles are part of 210.52.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Im not going to answer every scenario you dream up, the answers are all in 210.52 (B)

Well that's the first thing I agree with you on.

I show you where it is allowed and all you keep saying is 210.52(B). Nothing says SABC are limited to anywhere. SABC are defined no where in 210.52.

SABC fall under 210.11(C)(1) and are not defined there either.

Did you know that SABC are only required in dwellings? Don't need them if I put a kitchen in my garage, office or anywhere else.

 

[jxofaltrds]

210.52(B)(2) This would be SOOOOOO much easier if you read the two sections FIRST, then came back with questions...

I have. It says the required circuits can have no other outlets.

Just like ground rods. X number are required. Nothing prohibits me from adding more.

 

[charlie b]

Mike, nobody is saying you can?t have more than 2 SABCs. Indeed, the code is pretty clear about allowing more than 2. That is not the issue.

There are six duplex receptacle outlets serving my kitchen countertops. I have three 20 amp circuits that supply two of those outlets each, and that supply no other outlets. Are these three circuits SABCs? Yes they are.

I have another 20 amp circuit that supplies one duplex receptacle outlet that is located about 6.5 feet above the kitchen floor. That circuit supplies no other outlets. My microwave oven is plugged into that outlet. Is that circuit an SABC? No it is not.

You are right in observing that neither article 100 nor article 210 includes a definition for, ?small appliance branch circuit.? You are not right in concluding that that term is not defined in the NEC. It is given its definition in 210.11(C)(1). The term is defined as being the circuits that supply the receptacles that are required under 210.52(B). From that, we infer that any circuit that supplies a receptacle that is not required under 210.52(B) is not an SABC. That is my basis for saying that the circuit supplying my microwave is not an SABC.

 

[charlie b]

I already stated to read 210.52 (B)(1) and (2) it really can't be simpler...

Forgive me, but I would be grateful if you would stop saying that. Speaking in the most general terms, I believe the world would be far better off if nobody ever said, ?just read this document and you would change your views to match my own.? But speaking in terms more closely related to the purpose of this forum, different people are going to read the same words and arrive at different conclusions. That is why this forum exists ? to allow us to share our interpretations.

 

[stickboy1375]

Forgive me, but I would be grateful if you would stop saying that. Speaking in the most general terms, I believe the world would be far better off if nobody ever said, “just read this document and you would change your views to match my own.” But speaking in terms more closely related to the purpose of this forum, different people are going to read the same words and arrive at different conclusions. That is why this forum exists – to allow us to share our interpretations.

Well, when you read 210.52 (B)(2) No Other Outlets, I think its pretty clear it means 'no other outlets' sorry for the sarcasm... but honestly, mike is the only one not accepting that.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike, nobody is saying you can?t have more than 2 SABCs. Indeed, the code is pretty clear about allowing more than 2. That is not the issue.

There are six duplex receptacle outlets serving my kitchen countertops. I have three 20 amp circuits that supply two of those outlets each, and that supply no other outlets. Are these three circuits SABCs? Yes they are.

I have another 20 amp circuit that supplies one duplex receptacle outlet that is located about 6.5 feet above the kitchen floor. That circuit supplies no other outlets. My microwave oven is plugged into that outlet. Is that circuit an SABC? No it is not.

You are right in observing that neither article 100 nor article 210 includes a definition for, ?small appliance branch circuit.? You are not right in concluding that that term is not defined in the NEC. It is given its definition in 210.11(C)(1). The term is defined as being the circuits that supply the receptacles that are required under 210.52(B). From that, we infer that any circuit that supplies a receptacle that is not required under 210.52(B) is not an SABC. That is my basis for saying that the circuit supplying my microwave is not an SABC.

Now I can live with your explaination. Inferred.

If I installed your microwave receptacle outlet and called it a SABC would you turn me down? Just kidding. :lol: All I wanted to hear is that it was not defined. :thumbsup:

And you did what I think an AHJ should do, explain your interpretation rather than telling me that I am to stupid to understand the book. :dunce:

 

[charlie b]

Well, when you read 210.52 (B)(2) No Other Outlets, I think its pretty clear it means 'no other outlets' sorry for the sarcasm... but honestly, mike is the only one not accepting that.

It is not a matter of accepting or not accepting the "no other outlets" notion. When there is a failure to communicate, it doesn't help to say the same thing again and again. The thing to do is to try to figure out what the differences in interpretation are, then figure out why they are different.

In this instance, it seemed to me a matter of determining what is, and what is not an SABC. I think everyone (Mike included) understands and agrees that an SABC can have no outlets other than the ones that are in the list. The difference between what you have been saying, and what Mike has been saying, is related to whether a particular circuit is, or is not, an SABC. I am guessing that some (perhaps Mike) have started with the notion that if you have a circuit served by a 20 amp breaker, and with wires that go into the kitchen, that circuit is an SABC. I do not agree with that notion. I think that as soon as you connect the first countertop receptacle to a circuit, that act by itself causes the circuit to become an SABC. Thereafter, you cannot add any outlets that are not on the list. In my example, I have a circuit that is 20 amps and that is in the kitchen, but I do not call it an SABC because the outlet it serves is not on the list (being too high off the floor).