lighting outlet

[Jim W in Tampa]

Nothing in nec says we need prints,inspections or permits.

 

[tallgirl]

Nothing in nec says we need prints,inspections or permits.

Yeah, but it sure would help.

My electrical plan doesn't show the 4 x 2 floodlights on each corner of my house, control by two 3-way switches, one at each entrance (front and rear) and both in my bedroom.

The result of NOT showing that on the prints is that the floods weren't wired prior to final and the contractor had to open three different switch boxes and run a mess of 12/3 all over my attic. None of which is properly secured. On top of that, there is an inaccessible junction box / splice in a corner of the house where the ceiling is coffered. I know it's up there because I saw them cut a hole in the ceiling to hold the splice, then patch it. Oh -- the supply came from the general lighting circuit that feeds my bedroom and the lights in my bathroom.

The result is very likely (changed to avoid risk of slander suit ...) not to code and the 4-gang box in my bedroom is a mess as a result -- something I didn't find until I put illuminated 3-ways all around. Sadly, I've probably been in the house too long to make the builder come out and fix it.

Having been around GC's my entire life (no, really -- my parents were the GC's for the house I was born in ...), I know that this happens on a regular basis. I know none of y'all would, but I'm just saying that people who don't read this forum do

Since I'm becoming well-known for making annoying pronouncements, if I were Queen of the Universe, I'd require that all buildings have detailed electrical drawings and that the detailed electrical drawings would be verified against the appropriate code sections before construction began.

And don't no one tell me I have no business spending other people's money!

 

[iwire]

And don't no one tell me I have no business spending other people's money!

But you don't.

Having been around GC's my entire life (no, really -- my parents were the GC's for the house I was born in ...), I

Not sure I would admit to that with this group.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Fact is many houses are permitted with generic receptacles and lights on print to get the permit.In reality the owner often walks with the electrician and tells him/her what they really want.Millions are wired with no print in hand that comes close to what they got.Your lucky you even got a print.

 

[tallgirl]

Fact is many houses are permitted with generic receptacles and lights on print to get the permit.In reality the owner often walks with the electrician and tells him/her what they really want.Millions are wired with no print in hand that comes close to what they got.Your lucky you even got a print.

They left the print in the hall closet by mistake. I, uh, BORROWED it.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

They left the print in the hall closet by mistake. I, uh, BORROWED it.

By now i hope you relocated it to the bathroom LOL

 

[dingokangaroo]

Fact is many houses are permitted with generic receptacles and lights on print to get the permit.In reality the owner often walks with the electrician and tells him/her what they really want.Millions are wired with no print in hand that comes close to what they got.Your lucky you even got a print.

job i'm doing now.........the print changes daily.nice thing is that it is 44 ft from the railroad tracks. 6 story tall. hope the rich like trains....lol

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

job i'm doing now.........the print changes daily.nice thing is that it is 44 ft from the railroad tracks. 6 story tall. hope the rich like trains....lol

Whats wrong with trains ? My wife growed up next to tracks and misses them.Not sure what side she was on LOL.Actually after you get use to trains they are rather enjoyable at night.
We do office buildings that change many times before the first tenant arrives.Starting to think it be cheaper to just call us in after the rooms are built.Nothing ever is where they need it.

 

[david]

Article 100 only supports you position for the rough wire. Install lighting outlets in the places required for lighting outlets get the rough wire passed. If you install a device box to control your lights during the rough wire and you intended to use it for a switch it?s a device and not an outlet by code definition. As soon as you install one of those stacked Switch / Rec. the box is no longer a device box it?s now an outlet box. The additional device changed the definition. The reverse is just as true the lack of a lighting fixture when the job is complete changes by definition of what you installed Again the intended use does not define what it is for the final. Article 100 does not support your position at the final. That what the final is an inspection of what is their not what you intended or what will be their in the future. If you put a blank cover over a box you defined as an lighting outlet during the rough wire at the final this would meet the definition of a junction box not an outlet. If in the future you decide to install a lighting fixture at the device box you installed or fish wires in a different location, run wire mold, or install a fixture at the junction box you originally installed in the center of the ceiling, only the box that ends up with the lighting fixture will meet the definition of a lighting outlet at the final.
No it does not matter if it?s in your contract or not, it does not matter who?s responsible for the lighting fixtures the electrical inspection not just a inspection of your work it an inspection of the premises wiring system. And the building electrical must be complete at the final for you to get a final electrical report.
If I worked with you in the past and you tell me for the final that light is on order so we installed a blank cover until it comes in, I would say if the owner does not have a problem with it call me when you get it installed I would sign off on the final electrical report but I do not have to.

 

[roger]

David, where in the NEC is a fixture required to be installed on the "Lighting Outlet"?

CMP-2 even says it is not required by the NEC.

Roger

 

[iwire]

David I simply don't agree.

The definition of a lighting outlet does not require a luminaire to be installed.

Article 100

Lighting Outlet An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lamp holder, a luminaire (lighting fixture) or a pendent cord terminating in a lamp holder.

If I install a switched outlet for the purpose of later installing a fixture I have meet the definition.

Please compare the definition of lighting outlet to receptacle outlet.

Receptacle Outlet An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.

You do see the difference, 'intended for' is a far cry from 'are installed'.

What is your explanation of the difference here?

IMO if your requiring fixtures based on 210.70(A(1) you are exceeding what the NEC requires.

 

[david]

A ceiling box ( lighting outlet) with the wires at the final uncompleted work. Install a blank cover over the box inlue of a lighting fixture you have completed work with a room lacking the required lighting outlet. The addition of the blank cover would define the box as a junction not an outlet. Ceiling box wires hanging work in progress. Ceiling box blanked off, work complete with a room lacking required lighting outlet.

 

[al hildenbrand]

In my area it is the Building Code that requires illumination. Could be done with gas light, kerosene, chemical luminescence, but if the only thing in the room is an electrical lighting outlet. . .then there has to be a luminaire.

Al, that is the key. it is the "Building Code" that requires illumination, that has never been disputed in this thread.

As far as an electrical inspector red tagging a dwelling unit for the lack of fixtures using the NEC as back up for the red tag, he/she is mistaken

This is like driving a car through a single lane, one-way tunnel that has a sweeping right hand turn in it.

As I come to the turn, I switch on my right hand turn signal, and leave it on after the turn.

What is reality. . .

1. The thought in my head about what I will do, and have done,
2. The blinking of my right hand turn signal, inside and outside the car, both before and after the turn,
3. Or that the car is now going a different direction than before I entered the tunnel?

All these flat closed statements that the NEC doesn't require the luminaire is like saying the turn signal tells which way my car is travelling.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The code section cited reads "intended for " not "shall be installed".

In post # 10 pjg references my post and the citation I cut and pasted from Article 100 Definitions.

Until pjg tells us different, this thread's original post and question never said the inspector red tagged based on 210.70.

Edit - spelling.

 

[david]

Take your rec. box example. Rough in a device box for a rec. at the final instead of a rec blank off your device box you now have a junction box not a rec. outlet. When its all said and done its only an outlet when the device is installed
The definition of lighting outlet as given intended for connection of, as soon as you complete the work blanking off the box you have changed the intended use. If you could leave the ceiling box without the blank cover you could argue that is a box intended for the connection of a lighting fixture. I would agree and write work in progress as of this date. At the final you are presenting the work as complete. The same as the rec. box blanked off has to be defined as a junction box so does the ceiling box once blanked off presented as completed has to be defined. You can not define it as what it could be used for you have to define what is there at the time you presented the work completed. When something is completed their can not be an implied intended use present the work completed with a blank cover it?s a junction not an outlet.

 

[iwire]

The addition of the blank cover would define the box as a junction not an outlet.

Dave I see nothing in the NEC that backs that view up.

In my opinion is that the box is 'defined' as a lighting outlet them moment the designer placed it there with the intention it could be used in the future for the direct connection of a fixture.

The fact that at least one wall switch controls that outlet further shows it is intended to be a lighting outlet.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

David,

The definition of lighting outlet as given intended for connection of, as soon as you complete the work blanking off the box you have changed the intended use.

How does a cover change the "intended use"? The box and its wires are still intended to support and supply a light fixture.
Don

 

[iwire]

All these flat closed statements that the NEC doesn't require the luminaire is like saying the turn signal tells which way my car is traveling.

It does tell us what you intend to do...or at least we hope its what you intend to do.

I can not for the life of me understand why the use of the word intend is being overlooked.

It would have been a simple thing for the CMP to leave out the word intended. I have to assume they discussed each word used in such a short definition.

There is no reasonable explanation for using the word 'intended' in that definition if not for the reason Roger and I have been presenting.

Also as you know there are sections of the NEC that directly require illumination.....again that is not in the definition of lighting outlet.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The fact that at least one wall switch controls that outlet further shows it is intended to be a lighting outlet.

How does the wall switch show, at final, that a luminaire will be installed some day, as opposed to a paddlefan that is incapable of ever having a light kit installed?

 

[al hildenbrand]

It does tell us what you intend to do...or at least we hope its what you intend to do.

Note, in my example, the turn signal is left on after the turn.

The signal is like the ceiling box, roughed in, with a cable from a wall switch, which is left as is at final, and, to clear 314.25, has a blank cover. The signal is on. . .but has the direction of travel become evident?