lighting outlet

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allenwayne said:
I still say that there has to be a switch controlled lighting outlet at least 1 in a room and the definition of lighting outlet definetly uses the term fixture/lamp holder.Or a switched receptacle in lieu of a lighting outlet.Nowhere is it in writing that a ceiling fan without a light is acceptable,there must be some type of illumination.
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Read it slowly word by word.It says FOR the direct connection,it never said it needed to be there. A blanked off outlet is still for the direct connection of a fixture someday.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Read it slowly word by word.It says FOR the direct connection,it never said it needed to be there. A blanked off outlet is still for the direct connection of a fixture someday.
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Uh, how is a blanked off box with no outlet an outlet? And how is something that's not there, connected to what isn't there?
 
tallgirl said:
Uh, how is a blanked off box with no outlet an outlet? And how is something that's not there, connected to what isn't there?
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The lighting outlet is not the fixture.The lighting outlet is the box with the #12 or 14 wires.So it is there.
 
Once again:

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

It is an "Outlet" intended for a fixture, that's all, no fixture is required to make this a "Lighting Outlet"

In contrast let's look at the definition of a "Receptacle Outlet"

Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.

If a fixture were necessary for a "Lighting Outlet" to be a "Lighting Outlet" it would be worded the same as the definition of the "Receptacle Outlet" which requires a Receptacle to be installed.

If a luminaire is going to be required, somebody better work on the wording in the definition or the appropriate article and section that is going to require it.

Roger
 
:D
tallgirl said:
Uh, how is a blanked off box with no outlet an outlet? And how is something that's not there, connected to what isn't there?
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Exactly! Well said.
 
Is a garage still a garage if a car is not parked in it?

The building code may help. Illumination for all occupied spaces is required. Either natural or artifical, generally, artifically for the means of egress, especially stairways.
 
roger said:
If a luminaire is going to be required, somebody better work on the wording in the definition or the appropriate article and section that is going to require it.
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In my area it is the Building Code that requires illumination. Could be done with gas light, kerosene, chemical luminescence, but if the only thing in the room is an electrical lighting outlet. . .then there has to be a luminaire.

I can't dodge it by putting a paddlefan w/o light kit on the only lighting outlet in the room, or by blanking the jbox, and saying that either the fan or the jbox was intended. . .

The building AHJ is going to tell the General, who is going to tell me. . .

Now, if this jbox is the second, or more, opening, then it is optional, unless the footcandles of illumination is not met, in which case, the building code jumps in again.
 
al hildenbrand said:
:DExactly! Well said.
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I like tall girls annalogy of this.Without a fixture/luminare/lamp holder there is nothing installed.A prewire is one thing but to meet basic building code requirements there has to be #1 a switched receptacle or #2 a fixture of some type,Now the switched receptacle is convoluted in the scense that the HO doesnt have to plug in a lamp to illuminate the room/area.For what it`s worth they might just plug in a TV and control it by the switch so that Timmy doesn`t stay up past his bed time and it can be turned off :).But the terminoligy and the definition is quite clear.A lighing outlet is INTENDED for a source of illumination and not a source of air movement alone.Why else would they write a fixture/luminare/lamp holder in the definition 0f lighting outlet if a fan without a light would be sufficient.Yes it says intended for but I would like to hear of one case in which a C.O. was issued where there were no actual fixtures/lamp holders installed in a residence.If just supplying a box with wires that were controlled by a switch was all we had to do_Our inspectors don`t come in with a light meter since they do finals without power on but they want to see some type of lighting in an area.Any area there is.
 
al hildenbrand said:
In my area it is the Building Code that requires illumination. Could be done with gas light, kerosene, chemical luminescence, but if the only thing in the room is an electrical lighting outlet. . .then there has to be a luminaire.
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Al, that is the key. it is the "Building Code" that requires illumination, that has never been disputed in this thread.

As far as an electrical inspector red tagging a dwelling unit for the lack of fixtures using the NEC as back up for the red tag, he/she is mistaken.

The fact is the NEC does not require a luminaire to be installed on a lighting outlet.

The following ROP and statement made from CMP 2 for rejecting it supports this.

2-251 Log #575 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.70)
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Alan H. Nadon, City of Elkhart, IN
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
210.70 Lighting Outlets Required. Lighting outlets, that provide illumination,
shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), (C).
Substantiation: As currently worded, only 210.70(A)(2)(b) requires a lighting
outlet to actually illuminate anything. The definition of a lighting outlet, in
Article 100 does not require anything more than a junction box with switched
conductors intended to be connected to a lampholder, light fixture, or pendent
light. A proposal has also been submitted to change or amend the definition of
lighting outlet. Proper illumination ensures safe movement for persons thus
preventing many accidents.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The objective of the NEC is to provide the requirement for the lighting outlet. The requirements specific to illumination are in the building code.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
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Roger
 
You can call the box you installed in the ceiling an outlet if you want to, you put a blank cover on it. You now have a junction box, not an outlet. Until you install something that will use power to that box it is not an outlet. You call it a lighting outlet if you want to, It is not until you install a fixture that produces light. The wires in the box do not make it an outlet what you use that box for will determine its function.
You place a box that you intended to use for a lighting outlet in the ceiling the owner says I want a wall sconce instead and I want you to run wire mold from that box in the center of my ceiling across my ceiling to a box on the wall and that’s where I want my light mounted you tell me where is the lighting outlet the one in the ceiling or the wire mold box you now installed on his wall
 
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This could get fun.

This could get fun.

Looking at 110.26 (D), do those lighting outlets require fixtures, or can they be blanked? Same question for 110.34 (D).

Since we know that 210.70 doesn't actually require any kind of fixture, would it be permissible for the room containing the service panel to be at the other end of a long hallway having the required switches, but where the "lighting outlets" are blanked? What if the doors on both ends are self-closing? What if instead of a hallway, one has to cross a large room? With no windows? With no fixtures because the required lighting outlets are all blanked?
 
Although the NEC does not actually say there has to be a light installed on the lighting outlet.Our inspectors will say that they work in conjunction with the building department and that they the building department require a lighting fixture to be in habitable space.So there HAS to be some type of light installed.
 
Tallgirl, 110.26 & 110.34(D) differ in that they both require illumination, "Illumination shall be provided".

David,
You place a box that you intended to use for a lighting outlet in the ceiling the owner says I want a wall sconce instead and I want you to run wire mold from that box in the center of my ceiling across my ceiling to a box on the wall and that?s where I want my light mounted you tell me where is the lighting outlet the one in the ceiling or the wire mold box you now installed on his wall
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it wouldn't matter as long as a "Lighting Outlet" is provided somewhere in the room, and even though you have extended the original "Lighting Outlet" for connecting a raceway to it, it could still be a "Lighting Outlet".

Neither the extension box nor the new wall mounted box would need a fixture installed on them as far as the NEC is concerned.

It changes nothing, the "Lighting Outlet(s)" is/are in place.

Roger
 
roger said:
Tallgirl, 110.26 & 110.34(D) differ in that they both require illumination, "Illumination shall be provided".
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Okay, so the area is provided with a flashlight on a string, hung from a nail I put up after you tell me "Illumination shall be provided".

I don't see anything (yes, I'm giving it an intentionally difficult reading) that requires that anything be connected to the lighting outlet and that the illumination isn't a candle and box of matches.

It's a bit like 110.26 (A) (2) -- it's implied that the space for the 90 degrees that the "hinged doors or panels" can be opened doesn't result in the "hinged door or panel" keeping you from having working space in front of the equipment. Meaning, can the door be hinged down and limited to opening exactly 90 degrees so you can't work in front of the panel? I'd argue, again being intentionally difficult, that I'm providing plenty of working space -- as long as you leave the door closed. 110.26 (B) doesn't say the working space can't be obstructed by the hinged door or panel, only that it can't be used for storage.

210.70 (A) (3) and 210.70 (C) both clearly imply that the "lighting outlet" is intended to illuminate the area where they are required to be located.

Article 90 speaks about the area being free from hazards. I'd argue that not providing a fixture for the "lighting outlet", even if the language of 210.70 doesn't require it (which I conceed doesn't ...), is inconsistent with Article 90.
 
tallgirl said:
Okay, so the area is provided with a flashlight on a string, hung from a nail I put up after you tell me "Illumination shall be provided".
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The NEC does not apply to flashlights and matches. ;)
 
I was partially joking around with my previous post but now....

tallgirl said:
Article 90 speaks about the area being free from hazards. I'd argue that not providing a fixture for the "lighting outlet", even if the language of 210.70 doesn't require it (which I concede doesn't ...), is inconsistent with Article 90.
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...that you bring up Article 90 I drop the fun and get to business.

Nothing in Article 90 allows an inspector to require things that are not in the code. Article 90 does give the AHJ (most times not the inspector) some ability to interpret certain other code sections....an example of one would be "Closest to the point of entrance" that distance is left up to the AHJ.

There are many inconstancies between Article 90 and the rest of the code.

90 tells us the code is not a design manual but the code tells us where receptacles and lighting outlets are required. IMO that is a big conflict.

Bob
 
iwire said:
There are many inconstancies between Article 90 and the rest of the code.

90 tells us the code is not a design manual but the code tells us where receptacles and lighting outlets are required. IMO that is a big conflict.

Bob
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I think there are a lot of inconsistencies in the code that could be poked at if people were sufficiently malicious. When does ones person's malice become another person's legitimate concern?

If I had my way, I'd require that every bedroom, kitchen, den, living room, etc. have a dedicated 20A outlet located next to any network jacks because as soon as Cat5 is put in a room, someone is going to put a computer, monitor, desk lamp, and a lot of other things, all of which consume gobs of power, right there. Dittos for commercial construction -- computers are giant power suckers and there's no indication we're going back to paper and pencil any time soon!
 
iwire said:
Well we will have to remain in disagreement.
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I think there's a missing prepositional phrase -- "by one or more lighting outlets" -- after the main clause "Illumination shall be provided".

And as I told Roger earlier, I hope you understand I'm poking at the language of the code.

It wouldn't have hurt anyone if 210.70 were clarified to mention that the "lighting outlets" didn't require fixtures. In all seriousness now, what y'all are saying makes sense to me because "lighting receptacles" don't require that a floor lamp be present. After I considered that case, what y'all said made a lot more sense.
 
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