lighting outlet

[Jim W in Tampa]

Jim about a few years ago I saw an add in the st pete times that read (Wanted 20 romex rangers)I thought what in the heck is a romex ranger ????)
Then I found out a romex ranger is a low paid employee that pulls NM from point a to point b without knowing what it does.There is a very large EC in this state that sends 3 maybe 4 trucks to a home sure they wire it fast but the individuals only know i pull 3 wire from here to here.Or 2 wire from here to here.It`s a sad state of affairs.Gone are the days that require a journeyman on each and every job.Now as long as the master electrician that holds the license for the shop files the permit anybody can do the work here.The license holder doesn`t have to come to the shop just supply the license # and stay home !!!!!! Sad but true...............

I call it relicensing.State licenses the master and he in turn licenses his own men.You might just as well hire a handyman.The inspections are a joke and your more likely to get a man with some code knowledge.A journeyman in this state cant do anything on his own so very few even bother to get it.Master might never even meet the man thats using his license or see the job.

 

[petersonra]

Jim about a few years ago I saw an add in the st pete times that read (Wanted 20 romex rangers)I thought what in the heck is a romex ranger ????)
Then I found out a romex ranger is a low paid employee that pulls NM from point a to point b without knowing what it does.There is a very large EC in this state that sends 3 maybe 4 trucks to a home sure they wire it fast but the individuals only know i pull 3 wire from here to here.Or 2 wire from here to here.It`s a sad state of affairs.Gone are the days that require a journeyman on each and every job.Now as long as the master electrician that holds the license for the shop files the permit anybody can do the work here.The license holder doesn`t have to come to the shop just supply the license # and stay home !!!!!! Sad but true...............

What is wrong with using low paid help to do low skill work? Pulling Romex from point A to B requires a much lower skill level than other electrical work. as long as they are properly supervised so they don't stray into areas they lack skills in, who has been hurt?

Are you arguing that only JM electricians should be allowed to dig the ditches UF cables are installed in?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

What is wrong with using low paid help to do low skill work? Pulling Romex from point A to B requires a much lower skill level than other electrical work. as long as they are properly supervised so they don't stray into areas they lack skills in, who has been hurt?

Are you arguing that only JM electricians should be allowed to dig the ditches UF cables are installed in?

The same untrained men will be splicing them wires and putting in devices.If they are qualified then why bother with licensing or inspections.Might as well be handymen

 

[drg]

Jim retirement is knocking on your door, you should just quit the trade , open up a handyman business drink beer and enjoy life.

Even as a handyman you would still be a welcomed member here.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Jim retirement is knocking on your door, you should just quit the trade , open up a handyman business drink beer and enjoy life.

Even as a handyman you would still be a welcomed member here.

Actually i could make more doing handyman electrical work.Plenty of people would rather hire the unlicensed man and get a break on price.

 

[George Stolz]

I'd become a handyman, but I've lost the ability to sweat pipes together. With that, I'm off to try to salvage what I can of my water filtration system.

My iron filter is starting to poop out (the drain valve is sticking), so I figured I ought to install three-valve-bypasses so that I could isolate either the water softener or iron filter individually for maintenance. Somehow, I managed to screw that up. Normally, I have one out of five that will have a drip every minute, which disappears in a day. This time, almost all of my joints leaked.

The pictures speak for themselves...

--------------------------- Click on images for enlarged view ---------------------------​

P.S. If you're curious what happens to a copper pipe when you take a bender to it, don't bother.

 

[ceknight]

I'd become a handyman, but I've lost the ability to sweat pipes together. With that, I'm off to try to salvage what I can of my water filtration system.....

Looks like it's time to start over with fresh copper. I don't think those joints are salvageable.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I'd become a handyman, but I've lost the ability to sweat pipes together. With that, I'm off to try to salvage what I can of my water filtration system.

My iron filter is starting to poop out (the drain valve is sticking), so I figured I ought to install three-valve-bypasses so that I could isolate either the water softener or iron filter individually for maintenance. Somehow, I managed to screw that up. Normally, I have one out of five that will have a drip every minute, which disappears in a day. This time, almost all of my joints leaked.

The pictures speak for themselves...



P.S. If you're curious what happens to a copper pipe when you take a bender to it, don't bother.

Plumbing is easy.Always be sure no water is in the line and test with air not water.Copper is fun to solder

 

[drg]

See Jim, you already have a customer.
Simple fix also .

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Why dont you just use pvc.Your right your not a plumber.Take the copper to salvage yard because it is destroyed.

 

[drg]

Why dont you just use pvc.Your right your not a plumber.Take the copper to salvage yard because it is destroyed.

Can you back that up with a plumbing code reference ???

 

[drg]

Whoops ,I almost forgot that this is a electrical forum and we are now talking about plumbing problems, Sorry .

Jim anyways as a handyman you will not need any references or silly code articles so you can just condem Georges work if you want and install him a new system, I don't think you will need a permit so "get er done" .

 

[George Stolz]

I put up some pictures for a good laugh at my expense, and all I get is condemnation.

I have enough of that from the back of my mind.

Edit to add: My grandfather (who I am named after) and my uncle were/are both plumbers who eventually became inspectors. I think my grandfather is rolling in his grave right now.

 

[david]

The inspector does not have to final your job without the required fixtures in place. You can not just blank cover all the outlets supplied for lighting and expect a final. To illustrate this consider the placement of lighting outlets in bed room closets you may place an outlet at 18 1/2 inches from the rough framing and get your rough wiring passed, but your not getting a final unless the correct lighting fixture for that spacing can be verified at the final. The only way to make sure a surface mount incandescent fixture is not installed, is to verify that a surface mount fluorescent is installed not just a blank plate.
There has been many occasions that a home owner wanted a certain style light fixture in a bed room closet that was to small for that style fixture the electrician installs the home owners choice and I have to reject that choice make them change to a code compliant fixture even though I know they are changing the fixture back to the home owners choice as soon as the sole of my shoe hit the first step at their required exit.
When the code requires a lighting outlet to be roughed into the building wiring system you get your rough wiring passed when those outlets are their. You get your final approved when the correct fixtures are installed.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The inspector does not have to final your job without the required fixtures in place. You can not just blank cover all the outlets supplied for lighting and expect a final. To illustrate this consider the placement of lighting outlets in bed room closets you may place an outlet at 18 1/2 inches from the rough framing and get your rough wiring passed, but your not getting a final unless the correct lighting fixture for that spacing can be verified at the final. The only way to make sure a surface mount incandescent fixture is not installed, is to verify that a surface mount fluorescent is installed not just a blank plate.
There has been many occasions that a home owner wanted a certain style light fixture in a bed room closet that was to small for that style fixture the electrician installs the home owners choice and I have to reject that choice make them change to a code compliant fixture even though I know they are changing the fixture back to the home owners choice as soon as the sole of my shoe hit the first step at their required exit.
When the code requires a lighting outlet to be roughed into the building wiring system you get your rough wiring passed when those outlets are their. You get your final approved when the correct fixtures are installed.

The key word here is REQUIRED.Not all lighting outlets are required to have the fixtures.The bedroom is only required to have a lighting outlet,not fixture.As far as nec it can be blanked as you have met the requirement.

 

[George Stolz]

David,

So, if the closet was 20' wide and 15' long, and had one lighting outlet in the center, you would not pass it with a blank plate? Is it reasonable to assume that there might be a fixture installed at a later date that would violate 410.8 on this?

FWIW, I submitted a proposal that was rejected on this subject:

18-62 Log #1401 NEC-P18 Final Action: Reject
(410.8(D)(5))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: George Stolz, II, Pierce, CO
Recommendation: Add new text to read:
(D)(5) Lighting outlets blanked for future use installed in the wall or the
ceiling, provided there is a minimum clearance of 450 mm (18 in.) between the
lighting outlet and the nearest point of a storage space.

Substantiation: Mistakes during layout result in light fixtures encroaching
storage space. In many cases, the size of the luminaire to be installed is
unknown to the electrician at rough-in, and to the inspector as well. Frequently,
when the mistake is discovered at trim, these lighting outlets are blanked to
pass inspection (as this section deals only with luminaires, with no restrictions
on lighting outlets.) Adding this section will help to reduce illegal installations
and ease the burden on electricians and inspectors under unending negative
pressure from contractors.
It is highly likely that a homeowner will essentially be handed a fixture
that they have purchased with their new home, but cannot be installed by
a reputable electrician to code. The homeowner will most likely install the
violating fixture in the absence of the AHJ and electrician. The blanked
installation has a high potential for becoming the fire hazard that it was
attempting to evade.
The header of 410.8 should be revised to “luminaires/lighting outlets in
clothes closets” to reflect this change.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: This is an installation issue. Section 90.1(C) states that the
Code is not a design or instruction manual.

Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13

I read that to say, in their opinion, the blanked lighting outlet can exist for eternity. When the installer puts the offending fixture in, the existing code language will prohibit it. So, qualified people (who are bound by code) will still not be able to install it. That's kinda my take on their response.

 

[petersonra]

The same untrained men will be splicing them wires and putting in devices.If they are qualified then why bother with licensing or inspections.Might as well be handymen

No offense to you, but this kind of thing has been going on for a long time. It is not new. If there was any evidence that this practice results in unsafe installations it would have surfaced by now.

The world has changed a lot in the last 20 or 30 years. I can remember not all that long ago that the electricians around here swore that Romex was a death trap just waiting to be sprung. They were just plain wrong.

The plumbers used to claim plastic pipe was dangerous. Turned out they were wrong about that too. Around here they used a lot of galvanized pipe for underground water lines because they thought it was "better" than copper. Guess what? A lot of those underground pipes have corroded and are being replaced with plastic.

And the screaming about how dangerous the plastic gas lines are was almost comical. Now no one thinks anything about it.

 

[allenwayne]

I still say that there has to be a switch controlled lighting outlet at least 1 in a room and the definition of lighting outlet definetly uses the term fixture/lamp holder.Or a switched receptacle in lieu of a lighting outlet.Nowhere is it in writing that a ceiling fan without a light is acceptable,there must be some type of illumination.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I still say that there has to be a switch controlled lighting outlet at least 1 in a room and the definition of lighting outlet definetly uses the term fixture/lamp holder.Or a switched receptacle in lieu of a lighting outlet.Nowhere is it in writing that a ceiling fan without a light is acceptable,there must be some type of illumination.

I'm with you, Allen.

 

[JohnE]

Are you arguing that only JM electricians should be allowed to dig the ditches UF cables are installed in?

I'm arguing that this JM definitely does not have the skills to dig those ditches. My customers will argue that too!