lighting outlet

[iwire]

If I had my way, I'd require that every bedroom, kitchen, den, living room, etc. have a dedicated 20A outlet located next to any network jacks

What gives us the right to spend other peoples money?

If you make blanket code requirements as you suggest the large majority of these installations will go unused meaning both money and resources are wasted.

Many electricians make a good living installing dedicated / additional circuits when the person paying the bill decides they need one.

I for one would support a reduction in 'required' outlets.

Luckily I work commercial where there are almost no required outlets of any type.

To each their own and as I have not said it already.....Welcome to the forum.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I think there are a lot of inconsistencies in the code that could be poked at if people were sufficiently malicious. When does ones person's malice become another person's legitimate concern?

If I had my way, I'd require that every bedroom, kitchen, den, living room, etc. have a dedicated 20A outlet located next to any network jacks because as soon as Cat5 is put in a room, someone is going to put a computer, monitor, desk lamp, and a lot of other things, all of which consume gobs of power, right there. Dittos for commercial construction -- computers are giant power suckers and there's no indication we're going back to paper and pencil any time soon!

Just how much power do you think a computer takes ?Comp,mon,lamp at tops 500 watts more likely 300.We dont even give office computers a dedicated outlet.

 

[George Stolz]

Yeah, but the term "illumination" isn't limited to things that the NEC does apply to

Yes, it is. The word is present in the NEC, so it must be applied to what the NEC governs.

90.2 Scope. (A) Covered. This Code covers the installation of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical fiber cables and raceways for the following:

(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating buildings...

Premises Wiring (System). That interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed, that extends from the service point or source of power, such as a battery, a solar photovoltaic system, or a generator, transformer, or converter windings, to the outlet(s). Such wiring does not include wiring internal to appliances, luminaires (fixtures), motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment.

Edit to add: Before you (in good humor no doubt) claim that the battery is a source of power for the lamp inside the flashlight, they are all contained in the same appliance. By the definition of premises wiring, the NEC does not apply to wiring internal to appliances.

 

[George Stolz]

Just how much power do you think a computer takes ?Comp,mon,lamp at tops 500 watts more likely 300.We dont even give office computers a dedicated outlet.

You beat me to it: I just looked at my setup:

• Emachine Tower: .5 A
• Monitor: 2.8 A
• Printer: 1A
• E-net switch: 6.5 W @ 120V

That doesn't warrant a dedicated outlet in my book.

 

[iwire]

That doesn't warrant a dedicated outlet in my book.

I agree, one of my PCs ran on a K&T circuit just fine for a few years.


Now throw a laser printer in the mix and you may want to break out some cable.

In commercial spaces I work in I would list 'under desk heaters' and Laser printers as neck and neck for the number one cause of tripped breakers.

 

[George Stolz]

If I had my way, I'd require...

Not trying to hound you, there's just a lot of angles to approach this from.

My perspective is in line with Iwire's, in that I believe that the code is a minimum standard, and when they deviate from that into design, they start to bring the code down.

Key sections:

90.1 (A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

210.52 is not written as an attempt to give people convenience in their homes. It's stated purpose (according to the panel statements in ROPs and ROCs) is to minimize extension cord use in the home. With receptacles within 6' of any wall space, a homeowner will have less cause to use an extension cord, if all their appliances have 6' cords. Extension cords, when abused (as they easily are), cause fires. Fires destroy structures and kill people.

This section enhances safety. This is justifiable in a minimum standard.

When you say, "I would require..." I would instantly ask you to show a case where someone was injured or killed from a computer system plugged into a non-dedicated receptacle. That's a test for whether it's a safety issue or a design issue. 90.1(B) flat out states that code-compliant installations may not be efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service - simply "safe" is the goal.

Again, I'm not trying to hammer you, just spouting code-philosophy.

It is up to us as installers to sell higher quality (ie dedicated receptacles, etc) at our option.

 

[petersonra]

I agree, one of my PCs ran on a K&T circuit just fine for a few years.


Now throw a laser printer in the mix and you may want to break out some cable.

In commercial spaces I work in I would list 'under desk heaters' and Laser printers as neck and neck for the number one cause of tripped breakers.

I would say that the main reason you might want to have dedicated 20A circuits anywhere is for space heaters. Just about any office has half the people cold with heaters running and the other half warm with fans on.

In an offcie space you can't really go wrong putting at least 1 20A circuit in every office. That way if I overload my circuit, I don't shut off the computer in the guy next door.

 

[tallgirl]

Just how much power do you think a computer takes ?Comp,mon,lamp at tops 500 watts more likely 300.We dont even give office computers a dedicated outlet.

For someone's home if they aren't a "power user"? Typically between 300 and 500 watts. Gaming computers can go much higher, upwards of 800 to 1,000 watts for everything. Office computers run higher as well -- 500 to 800 -- with a large share of that being the monitors. Flat panels fix a lot of that, but they are cost-prohibative at the sizes used in many offices (a 20" flat panel easily costs more than an entire office PC).

The trend is upward -- computer cooling is a major field of invention these days. I have one cooling-related invention disclosure at the PTO right now and another one I'm fighting with lawyers over this month. As soon as engineers figure out how to remove all the heat, someone else figures out ways to generate more. I never thought I'd see water cooled home computers, but they're out there and becoming increasingly common.

 

[iwire]

Tall I spend a large majority of my time in office space...service, renovations, new construction etc.

A few things I have noticed in my area.

1)Monitors...no one is buying CRT monitors for offices and I usually find piles of CRTs waiting for recycling.

2)Office PCs, drawing less all the time...energy codes etc are driving to higher efficiency.

If I put an amprobe on a circuit supplying a couple of office 'systems' I will usually find about a 2 amp draw per system.

The real current draw of a PC is far lower than the tag will say. That tag is only accurate if the power supply is maxed out and very few are.


As far as 'Gamers' they are as nuts as audiophile's and no mater what they have is not good enough.

 

[hockeyoligist2]

In commercial spaces I work in I would list 'under desk heaters' and Laser printers as neck and neck for the number one cause of tripped breakers.

I get the "Under desk heater Problem" all the time. Our main office was built in the 50's or 60's and there aren't many outlets, so they overload them all the time. Even in the summer they run the heaters! I'm sweating, replacing bulbs and ballasts and they have a heater on! Anyway, last week I was sent over to repair a receptacle because it sparked when she unplugged her heater. It is a fancy digital one that uses power whether it is on or not. So when she grabs the cord and jerks it out (from her chair to the side) to plug something else in it sparks.......... Nothing wrong with the receptacle, just the operator..... Thank God they are building a new office soon!

 

[tallgirl]

Bob,

Thanks for the info. I see a lot of CRTs being replaced by larger businesses, but those used monitors are then resold to smaller businesses and individuals.

As far as 'Gamers' they are as nuts as audiophile's and no mater what they have is not good enough.

Agreed. The other group of computer users who are nuts is people like myself with giant servers that could support an entire business sitting in our bedrooms.

I'm on the other end of the IT biz from the office desktop users. The boxes I work with can very easily be 6000 VA in a single rack (10 3U servers @600VA each in a 19" rack is pretty common). I'm one of those people who drives commercial electricians crazy with my never ending demands for more power

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Check out the prices on new monitors.They have came way down.My new 17 inch led was only $200.For offices i would rather see dedicated circuits simply so they dont shut down someone else ,but this is not what the prints are showing.I highly suggest the small under desk ups but few buy them either.Have seen cubicals for 6 with only 1 circuit.That to me is pushing your luck.

 

[iwire]

The boxes I work with can very easily be 6000 VA in a single rack (10 3U servers @600VA each in a 19" rack is pretty common).

Have you taken current readings or are you just stating what the specs claim?

 

[tallgirl]

Check out the prices on new monitors.They have came way down.My new 17 inch led was only $200.

Thanks -- I'd not checked monitor prices in several months. Looking on outpost.com I see several 19" monitors for about $200, after rebate.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I dont think any electrician minds your wanting dedicated circuits.As long as they get paid for them.Let the needs of each ask for what they can afford.Many of the offices i see are not using high price computers as many do not need them.

 

[david]

Before you conclude you are entitled to a electrical final weather or not you install lighting fixtures or not, conceder the electrical plans that were submitted for approval, the symbols that were drawn in these respective rooms did not say lighting outlet. They most likely said ceiling mounted light or wall mounted light.
There is no real world application to the argument that you guys are making that lighting outlets can only be considered the outlet installed during the roof wiring stage. You want to define that box as a lighting outlet and not define it as a junction box what in the code supports your position. A greater percentage of the boxes you install will have other wiring passing through and junction in that box. The only thing your going to be able to fall back on to say that this box I installed in this area is a lighting outlet is your electrical plans and as I already said those plans are going to call out a light fixture wall mount or ceiling mount or perhaps as some of you pointed out a switched controlled rec.
If you going to argue you do not need a lighting fixture we are going to the plans to see if you do or not. The only place I would accept a blanked off box instead of a lighting fixture is where a lighting outlet was installed by design choice and not by code requirement and the owner changed their mind.

Sometimes I think we argue over weather the liquid that falls from the sky is rain or water if we put it in a glass and give it to some one to drink. Their is no real world application to this thread. The bottom line is the inspector does not have to except a ceiling fan with no lighting outlet installed in place of a required lighting outlet. If you guys want to play those games install the lighting fixture let the inspector sign off on the final and do what you fill is right after he has done his job , do not bring your inspector into some petty arguement as the owner does not want a light.

 

[iwire]

Before you conclude you are entitled to a electrical final weather or not you install lighting fixtures or not, conceder the electrical plans that were submitted for approval, the symbols that were drawn in these respective rooms did not say lighting outlet.

David your assuming plans are always turned in that show the electrical.

When I used to do dwelling units very few had electrical prints, we worked from architecturals and wired to code.

 

[iwire]

You want to define that box as a lighting outlet and not define it as a junction box what in the code supports your position.

Article 100 supports 'our' position 100%.

 

[roger]

Before you conclude you are entitled to a electrical final weather or not you install lighting fixtures or not, conceder the electrical plans that were submitted for approval, the symbols that were drawn in these respective rooms did not say lighting outlet. They most likely said ceiling mounted light or wall mounted light.

Are you telling us you have never seen N.I.C. on a set of drawings?

There is no real world application to the argument that you guys are making that lighting outlets can only be considered the outlet installed during the roof wiring stage.

Are you telling us you have never seen N.I.C. on a set of drawings?

You want to define that box as a lighting outlet and not define it as a junction box what in the code supports your position.

Take a few minutes and read this thread.

A greater percentage of the boxes you install will have other wiring passing through and junction in that box.

And that changes nothing.

The only thing your going to be able to fall back on to say that this box I installed in this area is a lighting outlet is your electrical plans and as I already said those plans are going to call out a light fixture wall mount or ceiling mount or perhaps as some of you pointed out a switched controlled rec.

Are you telling us you have never seen N.I.C. on a set of drawings?

If you going to argue you do not need a lighting fixture we are going to the plans to see if you do or not.

And if N.I.C. is present, or say it says to install 4' section of track model# blah, blah, blah, fixtures to be by owner, and this is a spec house, what are you going to do? There would not be a fixture would there?

The only place I would accept a blanked off box instead of a lighting fixture is where a lighting outlet was installed by design choice and not by code requirement and the owner changed their mind.

And where is this code requirement in the NEC?

Sometimes I think we argue over weather the liquid that falls from the sky is rain or water if we put it in a glass and give it to some one to drink. Their is no real world application to this thread. The bottom line is the inspector does not have to except a ceiling fan with no lighting outlet installed in place of a required lighting outlet.

Absolutely, most of us agree with this.

If you guys want to play those games install the lighting fixture let the inspector sign off on the final and do what you fill is right after he has done his job , do not bring your inspector into some petty argument as the owner does not want a light.

The inspector was right to red tag the installation when a fan with no fixture was mounted to the "Lighting Outlet" so where is the problem?

Roger

 

[tallgirl]

David --

Whether or not the prints show a lighting outlet somewhere or other doesn't mean the fixture is installed by the electical contractor. There are myriad number of reasons why it might not -- and that includes "customer supplies fixture". Adding insult to injury, it can also include providing wiring and support for ceiling fans that aren't installed at the time of inspection. Again, same deal -- "customer supplies fixture".

There's not even a guarantee that the prints that are submitted for approval are the correct prints for the house -- a lot of time tract homes are built from a pre-approved set of prints and the modifications are listed on a sheet of paper (or if I'm the customer, a ream of paper, but I digress ). And if you wanna know what problems that causes, come to my house -- I'll show you some really bad electrical work because the tract home builder who built my place couldn't bother to actually redraw the prints, and they are CAD-drafted plans printed with fonts to make them look hand drawn (morons), so it isn't like they couldn't click a button and just drawn a new set.

That's reality. Just because plans are drawn doesn't mean they mean anything.

(And just to be clear, I am looking at the electrical floor plan for my house as I type, noting all the brokenness of it, including that it's wrong-handed.)