Lobster tank GFCI protection?

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kwired said:
This thread is about GFCI, but the AFCI mess has all kinds of studies that conflict one another's results. I'm not totally picking a side, but the fact that there is legitimate studies that oppose one another tells me they may at least have jumped the gun on implementing code before they had it figured out, and still may not have it figured out.
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you will always have
scenarios where it works
and where it doeesn't

do you forsake those it may save because sometimes it doesn't work
like airbags or seat belts
it's probability based
 
kwired said:
Disposers are arguably just as much a threat of shock, yet those still don't require GFCI as a general rule.
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In a related story...

The third time we had to get a plumber out to clear the drainpipes after something went down the garbage disposer that (in retrospect) shouldn't have, I asked him if and how he managed to keep his at home clear, he said, "I wouldn't have one of those things in my house, but I'm sure glad other folks do."

Oh, yeah, lobsters... Don't put a lobster down your garbage disposer. :D
 
ggunn said:
In a related story...

The third time we had to get a plumber out to clear the drainpipes after something went down the garbage disposer that (in retrospect) shouldn't have, I asked him if and how he managed to keep his at home clear, he said, "I wouldn't have one of those things in my house, but I'm sure glad other folks do."
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gotta flush them once a week
fill sink with hot water and some baking soda
pull drain plug
turn disposal on until sink is drained
 
Ingenieur said:
so??? that is their function
and it is a body of opinions, called a consensus

I'm a member of an international code making body
we use science and fact, not personal opinion
takes unanimous agreement
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I know how it works. I am just conveying the CMP's thinking behind GFCIs which you refuse to acknowledge even where ROPs state it in terms of dishwashers.




Ingenieur said:
who would that be?
your backhanded insults carry no water like your opinion
my point was statistics show much greater issues than dishwashers
it was another member who went on a rant, much like you

I've rebutted 2 things
that you know the subject material
your arguements and google 'proof'

you said tap or pool water will not conduct
I proved it is a very good conductor
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I have not thrown out any names or insults. Only disagreed with math or theory in its application.


I never said tap water will not conduct- please show me where I said that.
 
mbrooke said:
I know how it works. I am just conveying the CMP's thinking behind GFCIs which you refuse to acknowledge even where ROPs state it in terms of dishwashers.

I have not thrown out any names or insults. Only disagreed with math or theory in its application.

I never said tap water will not conduct- please show me where I said that.
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I refuse to acknowledge because I do not believe it to be true

yes you did, names were not necessary, based on the post and your past history intent was clear

you said it would not trip a 20 mccb or even a gfci, ie, not conductive
I do not have to entertain your demands
 
mbrooke said:
Do you have any idea how high the resistance of water is? Standard tap water will not trip a GFCI, salt water is hit or miss. Often miss as well.
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:lol:

120/.006 = 20000 Ohm
water <10 Ohm range
sea water much lower

Ingenieur said:
ohm m
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Ingenieur said:
pool L = 10, coss section 10 x 2 = 20

pool
R = 0.4 x 10/20 = 0.2 ohm

drinking
20 to 2000
thin puddle
L = 1 mm = 0.001 m
A = 1/4 x 1/4 = 1/2 sq m
R = 20 x 0.001/0.5 = 0.04 Ohm
R = 2000 x 0.001/0.5 = 4 Ohm

all <<<< body Z
you know not of what you speak


Swimming pool water[j]3.33×10−1to 4.00×10−10.25 to 0.30[32]
Drinking water[k]2.00×101to 2.00×1035.00×10−4to
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Ingenieur said:
I refuse to acknowledge because I do not believe it to be true

yes you did, names were not necessary, based on the post and your past history intent was clear

you said it would not trip a 20 mccb or even a gfci, ie, not conductive
I do not have to entertain your demands
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So if something does not trip a GFCI its not conductive? Very untrue. You know its possible to conduct enough to have 3ma of leakage but that current will not trip a GFCI. Tap water conducts, but no as well as you want it to.



Ingenieur said:
:lol:

120/.006 = 20000 Ohm
water <10 Ohm range

p tap water 1000 ohm cm
sea water 25
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Ok, we can agree on this then :)
 
mbrooke said:
Ok- so again- why doesn't the GFCI trip in my vid? Cord is grounded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Ubh1Rml6E
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it is a set up
water p 2 - 2000 range, use 1000 ohm m
d between prongs ~ 1/2" or 0.013 m
cross sectional area 0.5^2 x pi / 2
divide by 2 since g and n in parallel
1/8" dia prong and gradient swells 4 times so A = 0.0005 m^2
R = 1000 x 0.013/0.0005 = 52 kohm
120/52000 = 2 mA<6 mA, no trip
that is why, rigged

also not a shock hazard until say a grounded person sticks their hand in
now path ~ L = 0.1 m and area 0.02 (9" sq)
A is likely larger, did not 'swell' path or use back of hand
R = 1000 x 0.1/0.02 = 5000 ohm
plus person and gnd path ~ 6000 ohm
120/6000 = 20 mA, gfci trips
 
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Ingenieur said:
it is a set upwater p 2 - 2000 range, use 1000 ohm md between prongs ~ 1/2" or 0.013 mcross sectional area 0.5^2 x pi / 2divide by 2 since g and n in parallel1/8" dia prong and gradient swells 4 timesA = 0.0005 m^2R = 1000 x 0.013/0.0005 = 52 kohm120/52000 = 2 mAthat is whyrigged also not a shock hazard untilsay a grounded person sticks hand innow path ~ L = 0.1 and area 0.02 (9" sq)A is likely larger, did not 'swell' path or use back of handR = 1000 x 0.1/0.02 = 5000 ohmplus person and gnd path ~ 6000120/6000 = 20 mA, gfci trips
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I have an extra “return” key if you need to borrow one.:D

Edit: Nevermind, I see you found yours.:)
 
Ingenieur said:
it is a set upwater p 2 - 2000 range, use 1000 ohm md between prongs ~ 1/2" or 0.013 mcross sectional area 0.5^2 x pi / 2divide by 2 since g and n in parallel1/8" dia prong and gradient swells 4 timesA = 0.0005 m^2R = 1000 x 0.013/0.0005 = 52 kohm120/52000 = 2 mAthat is whyrigged also not a shock hazard untilsay a grounded person sticks hand innow path ~ L = 0.1 and area 0.02 (9" sq)A is likely larger, did not 'swell' path or use back of handR = 1000 x 0.1/0.02 = 5000 ohmplus person and gnd path ~ 6000120/6000 = 20 mA, gfci trips
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Why would it be rigged? For what purpose? 2ma will not trip a GFCI.

Yes if a grounded person reached in they would get a bit of a shock. GFCI does work in such a case.
 
mbrooke said:
Why would it be rigged? For what purpose? 2ma will not trip a GFCI.

Yes if a grounded person reached in they would get a bit of a shock. GFCI does work in such a case.
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rigged
not a real world scenario of personnel protection
but it would protect regardless
 
Ingenieur said:
rigged
not a real world scenario of personnel protection
but it would protect regardless
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Based on what? Why do you think its rigged?


Not a real world scenario? Then you just agreed with my main point :D

Though I do agree it would protect in such a case.
 
mbrooke said:
Based on what? Why do you think its rigged?


Not a real world scenario? Then you just agreed with my main point :D

Though I do agree it would protect in such a case.
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no, you confirmed mine
even in this rigged scenario it would save a life
although a 20 mA they could likely jerk their hand out
 
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